Episode 97
What Norway’s Energy Transition Needs Now – With Dina Hestad from cCHANGE
🎉 5-YEAR ANNIVERSARY SPECIAL!
What if the key to solving the climate crisis isn’t just better tech, but better people leading with courage, compassion, and connection?
To mark five years of Stories for the Future, I’m joined by the brilliant Dina Hestad from cCHANGE, a social enterprise helping people and organizations create deep, lasting, and ethical transformation.
Dina has spent the past two decades working across the globe, from climate negotiations at the UN to field work in the Marshall Islands, uncovering the root causes of our biggest crises.
In this episode, we explore:
- Why traditional approaches to the energy transition are falling short
- The power of values-based leadership and systems change
- What makes the new Energiomstillerne program so timely and unique
- How individuals, no matter their title, can lead powerful transformations
👉 Interested in the program? Learn more about Energiomstillerne here (offered in Norwegian)
✨ Whether you’re in the energy sector, local government, academia, or just deeply passionate about the green shift—this episode will leave you feeling informed, empowered, and ready to rethink your role in the transition.
Connect with Dina on LinkedIn
Learn more about cCHANGE
Listen to episode 93, with Karen O'Brien and Idun Aunde about the Transformational Leadership for Sustainability Program
Want to be a guest on Stories for the future: Beyond the Bubble? Send Veslemoy Klavenes-Berge a message on PodMatch.
You can always find more information about the podcast and my work on storiesforthefuture.com
Transcript
Welcome back to Stories for the Future.
Speaker A:And not just any episode.
Speaker A:Today marks five years since I started this podcast.
Speaker A:On the day, actually.
Speaker A:Five years of conversations, fantastic guests, a little bit of nerves, I have to say, but all in all, five years of chasing a better future.
Speaker A:And I couldn't think of a better guest to celebrate this with than Dina Hesta from Sea Change.
Speaker A:Dina has spent her life tackling the root causes of the climate inequality and biodiversity crisis.
Speaker A:From the UN climate talks to fieldwork in the Marshall Islands and Palestine, her work now focuses on creating deep ethical transformation through initiatives in Norway and beyond.
Speaker A:We talk about her latest project in Sea Change, which is called Enashi Yum Silvana.
Speaker A:This is a leadership program rethinking how the energy transition happens from the inside out.
Speaker A:If you listened to my last episode before the summer break, the one with Karen o' Brien and Idun Avner, you will recognize both the company Sea Change and the methods and tools we discussed today.
Speaker A:These two episodes complement each other, so you should definitely listen to both.
Speaker A:Let's get into it.
Speaker A:Welcome to Stories for the Future.
Speaker A:Dina, I'm so, so happy to have you with me today.
Speaker B:Thank you, Mashtame.
Speaker B:I'm really happy to be here.
Speaker A:Could you start by briefly introducing yourself and the work that you do in this company called SeaChange?
Speaker B:Sure, yeah.
Speaker B:So my name is Dina and I'm a really values driven person.
Speaker B:So I like to start with talking about what I deeply care about and what drives me and that is compassion, oneness and courage.
Speaker B:Those are the values that I use as kind of compasses in my life and in my work.
Speaker B:And yes, I work in Sea Change, which is a small research based social enterprise that partners with people and organizations to generate transformative change and transformative changes that are equitable and enduring and that work for both people and nature.
Speaker B:One of the ways that we do that is through leadership development and capacity building.
Speaker B:We have an approach to to how to generate transformative change that I would say is pretty unique and that we're now bringing into the Green Transition work.
Speaker B:And that's been kind of my role for the past five years or for the past few years.
Speaker B:Looking at bringing with me a lot of my expertise and knowledge from the energy sector and also from my PhD where I looked at renewable energy cooperatives for instance, and bringing this approach into the green energy sector, green transition and see if we can have an impact there here in Norway.
Speaker A:Yes, and that is very much needed I think we can agree on in my work and with this podcast and my Work in general.
Speaker A:One of my goals is, I would say, in whatever way that I can, from where I stand, to help accelerate our transition to our world where we don't have to rely so much on fossil fuels.
Speaker A:I think we're very well aligned here and with the work that you're planning.
Speaker A:And you will soon be launching a new program with SeaChange called Ennasi Omstidlane in Norwegian, or we can translate it to something like the energy transition program in English.
Speaker A:And that is when I saw that you had a webinar about immediately like this.
Speaker A:This is exactly what we're talking about and what I'm passionate about myself.
Speaker A:So could you please just try to describe this program and try to explain it to somebody who doesn't know about the way that sea change normally work and how the program is building up on top of that, that way that you normally work?
Speaker B:Yeah, sure.
Speaker B:No, I'd love to.
Speaker B:And I'm really happy that our paths realigned for.
Speaker B:For this conversation because there's a lot of synergy and.
Speaker B:And commonalities.
Speaker B:Commonalities here now.
Speaker B:So this energy transition program is for people that see that what we're currently doing in the green energy transition in Norway isn't working and that are open to doing things differently so that we can increase the speed, depth, quality of the green energy transition.
Speaker B:Because one of the issues that we've had thus far, far, is that the way that we've approached it is partial.
Speaker B:So there's nothing wrong with the way that how we've kind of dealt with the green energy transition in Norway.
Speaker B:It's just not enough or it's just partial.
Speaker B:And part of that is because we've focused overwhelmingly on technology and economic dimensions of renewable energy, for instance, and not adequately taken into account how systems and structures and cultural norms in society impact the green energy transition, and also how people's values and beliefs and how they view the world impact how these technologies are implemented or not.
Speaker B:This program brings with it an approach that is well and truly tested globally on how we can increase the quality, depth and speed of these changes that are necessary through every single project that we work on, be that a technology project or social acceptance for a renewable energy project or whatever it is.
Speaker B:So it's a very practical approach to how we can achieve the results that we're after in a better way.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So it's.
Speaker A:I'm taking a course with you.
Speaker A:Like, I think it's five years, five years ago, perhaps.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Time flies.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that is called Transformational Leadership in Sustainability.
Speaker A:And I think you mentioned, and I read also that the approach and the way that you will be working with Energiomsilana is kind of the same.
Speaker A:It's very values driven.
Speaker A:It's different from the way that people normally do these things, I think we can say.
Speaker A:So could you try to explain, Explain.
Speaker A:Because when like trying to explain the, the Transformational Leadership in Sustainability program is also sometimes a bit hard if you don't have the examples.
Speaker A:So could you try to explain how, how, how it works?
Speaker B:Yeah, sure.
Speaker A:Maybe with examples, if that is easier.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, so, so let's wind onshore wind as an example, for instance, which is a very hot topic in Norway.
Speaker B:So how we, or let me talk firstly about how it's been done and the issues with that, or how it's partial.
Speaker B:And then let me talk a bit about how we could from this approach deal with it a bit differently that might lead to hopefully better results.
Speaker B: ic factors, especially in the: Speaker B:And the systems and the structures to approve wind farms as such, did not adequately focus on people's voice, people's democratic voice, like how they were included in the decision making processes other than people that actually owned the land.
Speaker B:And it also did not adequately address nature and the impact that it would have on nature.
Speaker B:So the focus on technology and economy came at the expense, expense of the focus of the systems and structures and social norms in society and also ecological systems, which created a huge, huge backlash in this country especially.
Speaker B:So it's been incredibly conflict ridden and it has resulted in complete and utter stagnation.
Speaker B:So it stopped, it stopped the concession process for what, four or five years or something.
Speaker B:So there has been.
Speaker B:It's only just starting up.
Speaker B:It's only just starting up now.
Speaker B:So what was, so what was partial with it was the lack of focus on, you know, people's identities, values, worldviews, what they deeply care about.
Speaker B:Because people in this country and a lot of countries, you know, we actually feel deeply connected to our cultural and natural landscapes.
Speaker B:So when they are threatened or we feel like they are threatened, that impacts people.
Speaker B:And when their voice in those systems or systems and processes are not heard, that's not taken seriously.
Speaker B:People's views are not taken seriously.
Speaker B:Of course people will react and they did hugely here because the focus is again on the technology.
Speaker B:How we would do it differently is start from a different angle.
Speaker B:Instead of starting with talking about the technology, for instance, we'd start looking at in a local community or region, what do we deeply care about?
Speaker B:How do we want to live?
Speaker B:What do we want to achieve together?
Speaker B:What's important for us, what are the challenges?
Speaker B:What's the data say about what the challenges are that face us?
Speaker B:And then start looking at, okay, so what are the different avenues for achieving those results when you've already kind of created a more trusting environment where people's views can be shared, and then you'll see which technologies might fit.
Speaker B:If energy is one of those issues, we've seen that we've done this in a lot of different projects, both myself and other people that I've worked with, that when you start at that angle, you can create a level of trust and respect amongst people that enable you to have conversations that are really difficult but still lead to better results than what we've had currently, which is a lot of threats and vitriol and really unsafe environments, really, to talk about these things.
Speaker B:So that's one long example.
Speaker A:Yeah, but it's a good one.
Speaker A:I wonder, because, like, I feel it's often often forgotten, so often forgotten the individual aspect here.
Speaker A:So I'm also thinking, but now it said windmills.
Speaker A:But another example is of course, oil and gas.
Speaker A:The oil and gas industry in Norway, which is we rely on heavily, and that is because so many people work in that industry.
Speaker A:So I feel often that the individual is forgotten in it.
Speaker A:We talk about the companies, we talk about politics, all this, but there are people making decisions.
Speaker A:So how can I guess.
Speaker A:You mentioned it already in a way.
Speaker A:But how to reach those individuals working inside that industry and also practically then when you look at this program, how can it reach those individuals?
Speaker B:Yeah, so you're exactly right.
Speaker B:Like, we are the system, we are the organizations.
Speaker B:Like the systems and organizations are social constructs.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So the ones that both, let's call create and maintain those organizations and systems are us.
Speaker B:So how you reach them is a good question.
Speaker B:But our target audiences at least, is those change makers, those change agents within those organizations, within those systems that see that things aren't working and that want to do things differently.
Speaker B:And I find that through having conversations like this, through getting an alternative narrative out there that helps in reaching them, because they're everywhere.
Speaker B:They're everywhere.
Speaker B:So many people see that what we're currently doing is not working.
Speaker B:And it's not just in the energy field or climate or sustainability.
Speaker B:It's pretty widespread.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Something is missing for people in nature to thrive all over the globe.
Speaker B:So it's not, it's, it's.
Speaker B:The question is not whether they're there and whether we matter.
Speaker B:It is whether we like how we reach them and how we can work together to do things, to do things differently.
Speaker B:And that's exactly what we're trying to do with this energy transition program.
Speaker B:So like, how do we gather these, we call them Ilshela or change agents that truly burn for change, but that are, that need new tools, frameworks and support from each other for how to actually get this done.
Speaker B:Because the program in and of itself is very practical.
Speaker B:It's really focused on projects or initiatives as we call them, and how we use every single project, every single initiative as an opportunity to generate not just incremental change, but systems change so that we can really escalate and upscale the changes that are needed.
Speaker B:Because again, there's so many people that are values driven, there's so many people that care and we can have a lot bigger impact than we, than we think when we work together and work more strategically.
Speaker A:Yeah, so you said it's very practical.
Speaker A:So trying to imagine this or picture it again, is it like people coming from for instance, a municipality or like academia or a small or medium sized company and they have bring their own project with them into the program?
Speaker B:Right, Exactly.
Speaker B:That is the way it works.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So they can be from all over, every different sector.
Speaker B:Again, the key thing is that they burn for this and they want to do something differently and then that they have projects or initiatives that they really care about that they'd like to, to see results from.
Speaker B:So you can bring in a project, it can be anything from hydrogen production to a small transition thing in your own organization.
Speaker B:With respect to recycling even, it can be anything.
Speaker B:Because we don't think about project as being big or small.
Speaker B:It's whether they're strategic or not.
Speaker B:Because you can work, you can work to change systems and structures through very small initiatives.
Speaker B:And that's kind of what's been the game changer for me with this way of working, is that I matter more than I think and these projects matter more than I think when I do them a bit differently.
Speaker B:So therefore, like in this, in this program, it's very focused on using different tools, both for both for self growth, personal growth, but also communication, how you bring people with you, how you transform disempowering conversations like complaints, for instance, into a generative space where you can move forward together to design.
Speaker B:How do you design projects differently and how do you implement them strategically for better results?
Speaker B:It goes across something that we call the three spheres of transformation, which is combining the practical, political and personal dimensions of change.
Speaker B:It's when we do that the real transformative changes can, can emerge.
Speaker A:So yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think back to my own project when I attended the transformational leadership course.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm trying to put words on it, but could you just briefly explain how that when you say the personal, the political and the.
Speaker A:What's the last word?
Speaker B:Practical.
Speaker A:Practical.
Speaker A:How do you use that?
Speaker A:How do you think about it when you have.
Speaker A:Can you take an example again?
Speaker B:Yeah, sure, yeah.
Speaker B:So let's take a project, a specific project as an example.
Speaker B:Let me do a circularity project.
Speaker B:So I've worked a lot on circularity hubs lately.
Speaker B:So getting different actors together to, especially from the business sector, but also public sector to work together to increase circularity and generate industrial symbiosis projects in local communities.
Speaker B:I'm going to do a generic one of those so that I don't give too much away in the ones that I work in.
Speaker B:But the way that we would start with that is that we'd get these actors together and we would start talking about, which is a bit unusual for people, what they deeply care about, why they're doing what they're doing.
Speaker B:Because for the most part, if you're working in this field, if you're interested in circularity, sustainability, industrial symbiosis stuff, there is something that you care about more so than, than just for instance, the profit of your company, which can also be important, of course.
Speaker B:But there's something else that drives you starting to talk about that.
Speaker B:What do I individually care about?
Speaker B:And sharing that with each other, which creates a completely different level of engagement and trust then also agreeing to which values do we care about together?
Speaker B:What do we want to achieve together?
Speaker B:Who do we need to be in order to generate the results, what we're after?
Speaker B:Because these values to us are not just words on a piece of paper.
Speaker B:They're truly the ethical foundation of, of who we are and how we work.
Speaker B:And when we identify them and are that we're much more able to actually make decisions on the basis of them.
Speaker B:So if compassion or justice is a core value for us, how do we practically implement that in projects?
Speaker B:That is one of the pillars and the true foundation of this whole way of working.
Speaker B:And it is truly been transformative personally, and I see it in these projects as well.
Speaker B:So when you identify that collectively, okay, we care about equity, for instance, and then we talk about, okay, so what's the Principles of how we're going to work together or we need to share, for instance, like if these companies and the public sector doesn't actually share data and information with each other, no type of circularity is going to happen.
Speaker B:So those types of things.
Speaker B:And then we look at.
Speaker B:And that's the personal sphere.
Speaker B:So that's where we start.
Speaker B:So what do we deeply care about?
Speaker B:How are we going to work together?
Speaker B:Then we go to the practical.
Speaker B:What do we want to achieve?
Speaker B:What's the problem?
Speaker B:What's the issues here?
Speaker B:And what are the results?
Speaker B:What are the visible, measurable results that we want to achieve?
Speaker B:Because oftentimes that can become generic or too focused on, for instance, profits as a single measure.
Speaker B:Whereas here we look at it much more holistically.
Speaker B:So what are the visible results for people and planet that we want to achieve?
Speaker B:Then it's the reduction of or increased circularity.
Speaker B:So a reduction of waste, increased workplaces where people thrive, having, having local communities that are engaged and, and proud of what their local communities and businesses are doing.
Speaker B:Things like, things like that.
Speaker B:And then we look at this, the political sphere.
Speaker B:So those are the systems and structures and cultural norms that we often forget about.
Speaker B:So there's been tons of people that have worked, both values driven and also results driven.
Speaker B:Like, it's not like we haven't had really ambitious goals and targets for a really long time in this field.
Speaker B:That's not new.
Speaker B:But we're not reaching them, especially not in Norway.
Speaker B: % since: Speaker B:So why is that?
Speaker B:A large part of that is because we are not looking at the systems and structures that are maintaining status quo.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So the things that are keeping us in place.
Speaker B:So what we do in these projects is that we identify what these are very, very specifically because the more specific we can be, the easier it is to address them.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So for instance, going from where money is the end, as in like the goal, the only goal of businesses, to being a means towards greater goals for the company and for the society and for nature, for instance, going from competition and fear of sharing information and, and stuff like that, to a support system and network and structures that allow and encourage collaboration.
Speaker B:And then one that we always have with us is the connection to nature.
Speaker B:So it's like from viewing nature as something that we own and can dominate and is a waste ground really, to connection and oneness with nature, realizing that we are a part of nature.
Speaker B:When we heard it, we heard ourselves.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And those deeper kind of paradigm shifts are truly, truly Transformative.
Speaker B:And the research, the research shows that.
Speaker B:So the more that we can, the more that we can identify these things, the better.
Speaker B:So that's one, that's the three spheres of transformations worksheets.
Speaker B:I've just gone through with you on how we design these projects, which is what we do very early on in the program.
Speaker B:And then it's about, okay, so how do we put this into life?
Speaker B:How do we make it happen?
Speaker B:What type of tools, what type of strategies do we need to make these projects have results?
Speaker A:There's one, there's one slide that I remember so well and I have it very handy on my shelf actually, because it's, it's, I think it's so good.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:And it, I can't remember all the stages, but it starts with input and it ends with impact.
Speaker A:You know which one I mean, like the result that you're actually looking for, what impact are you looking for and what kind of input do you need?
Speaker A:And the different stages.
Speaker A:Could you just take those stages?
Speaker A:Because I think it's so powerful when working on a project or starting a company or.
Speaker A:Yeah, whatever you're doing, actually.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Raising children.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:It can be used on anything.
Speaker B:So what you're describing is the transformational results chain.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So that started from a traditional results change, which is used a lot in the development sector.
Speaker B:So in there you start by looking at values first.
Speaker B:Or we, in a transformational results chain, we start looking at values first.
Speaker B:What are the values foundation of every single project?
Speaker B:Because again, we really use it as a decision making tool.
Speaker B:Then looking at impact.
Speaker B:What's the greatest impact, the biggest impact you want to have and that you often can't measure or you often, you often can't attribute to only yourself.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But it's the bigger vision that we're working towards.
Speaker B:And then it's about describing, okay, so which are the measurable results?
Speaker B:Which outcomes do you want to do, you want to achieve, what activities do you need to do in order to achieve those outcomes?
Speaker B:And then what input?
Speaker B:What do you need in terms of people, money, resources in order to achieve those activities?
Speaker B:It's really helpful in terms of remembering what the focus is because very often what we do is we measure activities, how many reports that we've produced or how many projects completed or things like that.
Speaker B:But that doesn't actually tell us anything about what we've achieved for, for people, organizations or nature.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's the outcome bit.
Speaker B:But then for us, what's different than a traditional results chain is also the boxes that come underneath, which is about, okay, so what do you need then to go from input to output?
Speaker B:So who do you need to be as a manager?
Speaker B:How do you need to interact with other human beings basically to actually get the results that you're after?
Speaker B:Then how do you move from activities to outcomes, which shifts again in system structures and cultural norms?
Speaker B:Do you need to change in order to actually get those outcomes?
Speaker B:Then how do you make them enduring?
Speaker B:How do you go from outcome to impact?
Speaker B:Yes, you know, so that, it's a paradigm shift because that's what we're after.
Speaker B:We don't want, we don't, we don't want to keep creating little results or little projects everywhere.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We want to change systems and structures so that we all have a better life, basically.
Speaker B:And, and that requires big changes in paradigms and systems and who do we need to be and how do we do that?
Speaker B:So we actually describe that.
Speaker B:So it's a, I agree.
Speaker B:It's a, it's a great, it's a great project design tool.
Speaker B:I use it a lot.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So that's another good example of kind of the practical tools that we, that we use in the, in the program.
Speaker B:And I have to acknowledge, because I haven't done that yet.
Speaker B:But where this comes, where this comes from.
Speaker A:Yes, please do.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yes, because we haven't come up with it.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B: s and: Speaker B:And she started this work when she was leading a program, a huge program on HIV AIDS which was obviously a massive, massive challenge.
Speaker B:And it's still, it still is, but it has, it's in a different, it's different than what it was.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And what she saw is that, yes, there is need for, for condoms and protecting people sexually to stop, stop transmission of disease.
Speaker B:And there's also for clean needles and for medical treatment.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's the practical sphere.
Speaker B:Yeah, definitely important.
Speaker B:But that wasn't stemming the rate of, the rate of transmission because they weren't looking at things like cultural norms and, and systems again, like people believing that the way that would, they would get cured from HIV AIDS was sleeping with a virgin.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, that doesn't, you know, that sort of stuff is very, very real in a lot of countries.
Speaker B:And if you don't deal with that, you're not going to stem, you're not going to, you're not going to stop the transmission of HIV aids.
Speaker B:And you're also not Going to connect with people and make people want to generate change.
Speaker B:If you don't connect with what they deeply care about and seeing that their personal actions or actions of others are not in alignment with what they deeply care about.
Speaker B:So, for instance, with respect to.
Speaker A:To.
Speaker B:Female genital mutilation, for instance, which Monica also worked a lot on, when a priest and an imam realized that their, what they were advocating was not aligned with their values of compassion, the compassion of Christ or the mercy of Allah, until they didn't, until they saw that themselves, they didn't want to change anything.
Speaker B:But when they saw that their actions was not in alignment with that, the imam released a fatwa against female genital mutilation in his country.
Speaker B:And that's not about changing people.
Speaker B:It's about making people realize what they stand for and whether their actions are in accordance with it or not.
Speaker B:That's what Monica did in over 60 countries, reaching over 100 million people, which is pretty impressive.
Speaker B:Definitely some very, very impressive results in the process, like those stories I just mentioned.
Speaker B:And then she has expanded this throughout the world, throughout lots of different topics and fields.
Speaker B: ', Brien, met her in the late: Speaker B:She came to Monica and she said, hey, I have a problem.
Speaker B:It's called climate change.
Speaker B:Can you help me with it?
Speaker B:And Karen o' Brien and Linda Signal, the founders of Sea Change, made it into the three spheres of transformation.
Speaker B:Monica calls it the conscious full spectrum response model and brought it into academia about, like, 10 years ago.
Speaker B:And the approach has now been referenced, I don't know, a couple of thousand times or something.
Speaker B:And it's been used in the ipcc, so the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and a big report from the UN Nature panel last year basically scientifically validated the whole thing.
Speaker B:So we have a huge UN report now that acknowledges that this way of working is how you generate transformative change.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So that has been really, really great.
Speaker B:So just to say that even though the program is new, the approach and the research behind it is not.
Speaker B:It's just the first time that we do it in this field and in Norwegian.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And yeah, I was about to ask you that because it's, it's very reassuring to know how grounded you are in research and like scientific knowledge.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think that's, that's a really good basis for what you're doing.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But to get a bit practical for those listening who thinks that this could really be interesting for them.
Speaker A:What does the program look like in like practical terms?
Speaker B:Yeah, sure.
Speaker B:So it's three times.
Speaker B:No, two times three days.
Speaker B:So two gatherings of three days each in February and March of next year in Norway.
Speaker B:So for the.
Speaker B:And that is in, that is in Norwegian, but for the English speaking people that are interested, we also have a longer version of the program in English running this fall in, in Oslo.
Speaker B:Yeah, but the, the main focus for the physical gatherings are three days each in February and March.
Speaker B:But then there's also practice in between and a resource network or alumni network afterwards.
Speaker B:And this is, this is something that's really, really important to us because most leadership programs or a lot of leadership programs are very inspirational and they can lead to a lot of knowledge building or wisdom creation during the sessions.
Speaker B:But then they don't translate into change on the ground or you're not able to integrate those changes into your work.
Speaker B:And the way that this program is set up is, is for practice, practice, practice.
Speaker B:So we have what we call triad groups where you meet three other peers along with a coach every week in between the sessions and also for a while afterwards where you can share insights.
Speaker B:Aha.
Speaker B:Moments about what you've learned and how you've practiced in a way that for me has been incredibly useful in, in actually making it a part of my life too.
Speaker B:Because one of the other things that we work on a lot in sea change is habits change, how to change habits.
Speaker B:And it's through practice.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:You know, you just got to, you got to do it.
Speaker B:So it's set up, it's set up for that.
Speaker B:And then the second aspect is, is the alumni network or the resource groups that we're going to have afterwards, which are also very practical.
Speaker B:So there are two main focuses to those.
Speaker B:One is.
Speaker B:Or there's three.
Speaker B:One is a extension of this practice dimension.
Speaker B:So sharing insights and learning from each other because peer learning is incredibly important in this.
Speaker B:But the other one is incubating projects.
Speaker B:So how do you, what are the projects?
Speaker B:What do the individuals and the projects need to actually make them realize, realize.
Speaker B:And we have a lot of great partners on board that can help with technical aspects.
Speaker B:And then we're supporting more on the, on the social and transformative part of it.
Speaker B:And then the second bit is shift groups as we call it, or action groups.
Speaker B:So identifying together, the group is going to identify together which goals, which targets do we want to achieve?
Speaker B:What needs to change how through which shifts and systems and structures do we need to shift in order to generate Those results then create different groups of people that work together and support each other to actually achieve them.
Speaker B:For instance, one example that we could be looking at is there's a municipality in Norway that has come up with an ambition to become self sufficient in renewable energy, Kristiansund municipality.
Speaker B:So one of the groups could be looking at, okay, so how do we do that?
Speaker B:You know, how do we make Christiansen self sufficient?
Speaker B:What are the barriers?
Speaker B:What are the things that we need to overcome in order to do that?
Speaker B:And how do we actually do it so that it becomes.
Speaker B:Yes, we actually generate results.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And there's so many examples that we could.
Speaker B:It has to come from the participants.
Speaker B:So this is just an idea, but.
Speaker B:Yeah, but I'd like to ask you, Vashtamet, because you've taken the program.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Again, like you said, a few years back.
Speaker B:But it is kind of like you say, it can be hard to describe, but personal examples and stories really help.
Speaker A:Mm.
Speaker B:And that's been.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's at least my experience.
Speaker B:So how was it for you?
Speaker B:Like, what did you take from it?
Speaker A:I think the most important thing for me, I actually worked on energy transition.
Speaker A:That was my project when I took the course.
Speaker A:And it was more, it was on the kind of personal level, but how to build bridges between the oil and gas industry and, and kind of how to make that transition.
Speaker A:And what I mostly took away from it, I think, was how to implement the personal sphere, I think was the most important.
Speaker A:I remember so clearly that is another kind of slider sheet I remember very.
Speaker A:I can see it in front of me, how I use these.
Speaker A:Okay, what do we base this on?
Speaker A:Like if the project equity, for instance, and what does that translate to?
Speaker A:How do we need to be in order to implement that in the project?
Speaker A:So I think that was the most important part for me.
Speaker A:And that is also why I always, since then, have stressed so much the individual in this transition.
Speaker A:Because as I said, it's so easy to forget that people, we're just people.
Speaker A:And as you said, like society is made up of us, we're the system.
Speaker A:So I think that was the most important part.
Speaker A:And it's just a very, very different way of working compared to anything else I've done.
Speaker A:And also the triads, extremely helpful and powerful.
Speaker A:So I, I really like it when you say that.
Speaker A:It's not like it's not three days times two and you get a lot of inspiration and then bye, bye, go, go home with all the inspiration.
Speaker A:It's actually something happening after that and.
Speaker A:And the aim is to, to give people the resources and the networks and all they need to do to actually complete the projects that they're coming in with or else nothing will happen.
Speaker A:We'll sit there with all this inspiration.
Speaker A:But so what?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, no, exactly.
Speaker B:Because we're habitual creatures.
Speaker B:Like we want to, our brains want to conserve energy and we want to retain our neural pathways.
Speaker B:But we are neuroplastic.
Speaker B:So we can change.
Speaker B:But you need to have like the structures in place to, to do so.
Speaker B:Or at least it helps a lot.
Speaker B:Unless like relying only on self discipline can be tricky.
Speaker B:I think we have all experienced that if we've tried dieting or, or quitting something that we should be quitting.
Speaker B:That's not good for us.
Speaker B:So that's what we're trying or that's what we do with these programs.
Speaker B:We create the environment for integrating that change and practicing that change so that it becomes enduring and that is really rewarding and really fun.
Speaker B:So it's good that you have that experience as well.
Speaker B:And the personal sphere is very often forgotten or it's not integrated in a way that connects to the systemic change that's necessary and to the practical change.
Speaker B:So for instance, there's a big wave on, on mindfulness and breath work and, and, and bringing kind of, bringing kind of those types of tools into how, how we deal with stress, you know, and, and, and all of the kind of trauma of the world.
Speaker B:But also like how we avoid burnouts in work settings, for instance, because burnout is becoming just a bigger, bigger challenge.
Speaker B:But burnout is not an individual condition.
Speaker B:It's a systems disease.
Speaker B:It's a systems condition.
Speaker B:Like we burn out because there's something that doesn't work with the system around us.
Speaker B:So how do we then change the system?
Speaker B:Because you can meditate for which is really important, by the way.
Speaker B:Like, I'm not, not saying that meditation and breath work and stuff is not important, but it's a sim.
Speaker B:Like you're just dealing with the symptoms, you're not dealing with the causes.
Speaker A:True.
Speaker B:So that's kind of another example of why it's so important to work across these spheres simultaneously so that we don't have to deal with the same types of issues again and again and again because they reemerge either as the same or different symptoms.
Speaker B:If we don't actually deal with what the underlying issues are.
Speaker A:Yes, so true.
Speaker A:And on that note, then in a way, because looking at where we're based in Norway and we have touched on it and the program being about the energy transition.
Speaker A:And so many people here, as I said, work in this industry, oil and gas industry or.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:What kind of transformation are you hoping for when it comes to, like, our society?
Speaker A:Like, political change, individual change, company level?
Speaker A:Maybe a hard question, but what's the vision?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a very, very good question because at the, at the, if we think about it in the bigger term, right, like the impact, like we were talking about earlier, it's very overarching and it can sound very vague, but it is about people in nature thriving.
Speaker B:You know, it's about us doing well individually and collectively and not at the expense of nature, which, again, we are a part of, but more specifically because that's kind of like, again, it becomes a bit big and big.
Speaker B:But it's about these.
Speaker B:I want to contribute to having these technologies be implemented in a way that actually benefits as, like, everyone is the ideal.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So that it doesn't have unintended negative consequences.
Speaker B:It actually reduces emissions, it actually benefits local communities, it actually benefits businesses.
Speaker B:And it might sound naive because there's a lot of talk about that we need to choose or that there's dilemmas between these things.
Speaker B:But I have seen, and I genuinely believe that at least if, if not yet, it's not about making everyone happy.
Speaker B:That's not the, that's not the goal.
Speaker B:But to create a level of contentment and to create a level of results that actually, you know, create better lives.
Speaker B:And like, is not, it's not at the expense of, at the expense of nature.
Speaker B:And that, I think is entirely, entirely doable.
Speaker B:So that's what we're like to contribute to.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Like, how do we.
Speaker B:We can do this better?
Speaker B:And we have to, like, honestly, we have to.
Speaker B:Yeah, because especially with, with.
Speaker B:I have worked all over the, all over the world, but Norway is particularly fascinating given how much it's kind of stagnated and how much conflict and polarization has been around the green energy transition.
Speaker B:And also the lack of vision and ability or belief, I think the government has in its own ability to actually achieve its results or achieve its targets.
Speaker B:Because we have seriously ambitious targets.
Speaker B:If that's not the issue, we keep increasing them.
Speaker B:It's like the politics of never getting there.
Speaker B:It's just about, okay, how ambitious can we be on paper and then not, not reaching them because we're not willing to deal with the things like the oil and gas sector, you know, like, are we.
Speaker B:We don't want to talk about if we're going to put an end date on oil or how we're going to transition when we're going to transition or actually put money behind it because still like almost 95% more is invested in oil and gas than in renewables.
Speaker B:Like they'.
Speaker B:Backing.
Speaker B:They're not backing their own targets because they maybe don't believe it.
Speaker B:Believe that.
Speaker B:Impossible.
Speaker B:Again, the personal sphere.
Speaker B:Right, like this stuff.
Speaker B:Yes, this stuff really matters.
Speaker B:So how do you shift from that?
Speaker A:Yeah, but I wonder, because this is a very hard question because I had.
Speaker A:This was part of this panel conversation at a, an oil and gas conference, I would say they would call it an energy conference last summer.
Speaker A:And it came up again and again because we had people from, from Equinor, from, From kind of all stakeholders from renewables and from.
Speaker A:Yeah, the traditional.
Speaker A:And it came up again and again, all the different.
Speaker A:Every energy type or source has its drawbacks.
Speaker A:Like you have the, the, the wind energy and like offshore wind and the fish.
Speaker A:And there's always something, you know, everything.
Speaker A:So that is one issue.
Speaker A:And then I'm also wondering, so in Norway, is it like this?
Speaker A:Not in my backyard, we don't want the windmills.
Speaker A:It's always something.
Speaker A:Or is this also this we refuse to suffer.
Speaker A:Maybe we need to accept that things will be a bit harder for a while or that we need to sacrifice something.
Speaker A:Is it that, is it that we're too used to be comfortable?
Speaker B:Or.
Speaker A:Where do you see the biggest hurdle in, in Norway?
Speaker B:It's a very, very good question, a very big one.
Speaker B:And I just have some thoughts about it.
Speaker B:Definitely not an answer, but I guess it is.
Speaker B:I think it's related to what we see as necessary to have a good life, to live a good life.
Speaker B:And right now the definition of success is, is growth.
Speaker B:So we need to have more, we need to have more money, more things.
Speaker B:Whereas in a lot of other cultures, especially indigenous cultures, it's about contentment and sufficiency with what you have and with the relationships that you, that you have.
Speaker B:So that when we have this kind of belief that the, the economy has to keep growing, we have to increase gdp, which you do through things like war as well.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And we've earned, we've earned a hell of a lot on our involvement in things that are not good for, for, for humanity, including oil and gas.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like the, the, the definition of success, the metrics of success are not working.
Speaker B:Like, it's not what's true.
Speaker B:It's not what truly creates thriving lives.
Speaker B:So when we have those metrics, when that's the goal of the system, of course it's going to be incredibly difficult to transition away from oil and gas and to have serious conversations about how we do it because we don't have an easy alternative to turn to.
Speaker B:It's not one solution.
Speaker B:There's not.
Speaker B:You can't.
Speaker B:Yeah, there's.
Speaker B:There isn't.
Speaker B:And it's also.
Speaker B:So it's like, is it, Is it really.
Speaker B:I don't know if the, the sacrifice narrative or conversation helps us, because is it truly a sacrifice if the metrics or the goal is different?
Speaker B:So what is it that's truly.
Speaker B:That truly makes us content?
Speaker B:And I'm not talking about happiness, because happiness is very.
Speaker B:It's a much more shallow.
Speaker B:It's much more shallow feeling and chasing happiness is kind of unrealistic because we're never always going to be happy.
Speaker B:But contentment and standing in sufficiency and standing in love and connection with who we are and with those around us, including nature, isn't that what really gives us like joy and thriving?
Speaker B:And do we need more stuff for that?
Speaker B:Do we need more money for that?
Speaker B:I don't think so.
Speaker B:So I think the, I think the, the goals, again, this is why it's.
Speaker B:We talk so much about systems and structures and why it's difficult to grasp often because it becomes so.
Speaker B:It becomes so vague.
Speaker B:But that's kind of where we're getting at really, is those types of things.
Speaker B:Like if we assume that we got to continue growing, because that's a belief, that's not a fact.
Speaker B:And the systems, yes, are designed around it, but we've designed those systems and we can change them.
Speaker B:So let's change the goal.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And how, and how one does that.
Speaker B:We're hoping that these tools and the framework helps with it and that people like, that people find the answers for themselves.
Speaker B:Because again, that's one of the key things of this program.
Speaker B:We don't give people answers, we give people questions and we give people tools and approaches to find those answers themselves.
Speaker B:But it would be an incredibly interesting thing to explore both nationally, but also within sector, like in the oil and gas sector.
Speaker B:What is the goal of the oil and gas sector if it's not profit?
Speaker B:True, right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And what is the new vision for Norway?
Speaker B:Because it's like the current.
Speaker B:It's so uninspiring.
Speaker B:You know, what the, what the current narrative is about who we are meant to be and how we're meant to live.
Speaker B:Because it's really not at that.
Speaker B:It's just about who.
Speaker B:It's much more about how are we going to win.
Speaker B:Who's going to win and what are we going to give to different groups of people in order to win?
Speaker B:Because that's how the democratic system, the political system is setup.
Speaker B:That also doesn't really work.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yes, yes, big question.
Speaker B:Long.
Speaker A:Yeah, big question.
Speaker A:And I think we can just say that there's a lot of need for this program and it will be very exciting to see what kind of people come to it.
Speaker A:And I hope that the listeners have gotten a lot of enough information and also gotten really curious about learning more about it and checking out.
Speaker A:So before I go to the details about where people can find it, I would like to ask you before we wrap up, what does this work mean to you personally?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a very good question.
Speaker B:It means a lot.
Speaker B:I worked on this for quite a few years now and the kind of passion or interest and energy started with a mentor of mine that I worked with about 15 years ago called Karen soon, and she passed away a few years ago.
Speaker B:So it's, she ignited this interest in this passion in me and working in this, and working in this field.
Speaker B:And now I like continuously just want to call her and be like, how do you, what would I, what do you, what would you do?
Speaker B:Like how would you.
Speaker B:How, like, yeah, get her advice, but obviously I can't.
Speaker B:So it, and also there's lots of other mentors like that, like from the, from the Marshall Islands, people that have inspired me to, to, to, to want to work on, you know, both climate change and energy stuff as well.
Speaker B:So like, that part of it really drives me and makes this, this meaningful kind of continuing their legacy and, and, and making, trying to make a difference for myself and for others, including my, my children, things like that, because the energy transition.
Speaker B:So it's obviously just one sector or one area where it is important to do this type of work.
Speaker B:And I've worked in a lot of different fields and sectors.
Speaker B:This is just one among many.
Speaker B:But I really believe that this one has a lot of potential and reach and it is one of the most impactful.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So it's like if we can make a difference here, which I think we can, then it will have a big, it can have a huge impact for, for my children and for their, for their children.
Speaker B:So it's really important to me to, to try this out, to see how it, to see how it goes and hopefully actually generate measurable results, which is what drives me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's, it's, I think it's important to see it as something personal because as you said, it's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's about the future and our children and.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Just a way that we can live.
Speaker B:That's how we connect.
Speaker B:That's how we connect like as human beings, stories and relationships and being personal.
Speaker B:So, yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So practically, where do people find out more about this program and when can they sign up?
Speaker A:And I guess we can say that this one, the Enna Shiom Stylane is for Norwegian listeners mainly.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:Go to our website, see change.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:And there you will find information about Nashim Stelana.
Speaker B:And you will also, for those of you who are not Norwegian, find information about the other programs that we have, both the transformational leadership for sustainability and other projects and collaborations in different sectors and fields and us in seachange.
Speaker B:So this is just one of the things that we do right, like these leadership programs, but we also use these tools and this approach very practically in projects like I talked about earlier on Circularity, for instance.
Speaker B:But we also work in schools, in different businesses, in research, a lot of research in academia, so.
Speaker B:And with development, environmental development sector as well.
Speaker B:So it's a.
Speaker B:It's a.
Speaker B:It's a blessing and a curse almost because these, this approach and these tools are subject agnostic.
Speaker B:You can use it on anything, on everything.
Speaker B:And therefore you can get a bit.
Speaker B:Or we see potential everywhere.
Speaker B:So we want to use it everywhere, but we're not enough people use it everywhere.
Speaker B:So therefore I've focused mostly on.
Speaker B:On energy and circularity.
Speaker B:So, yeah, go to our website, cchange.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And you can sign up now.
Speaker A:Yeah, I encourage people to do that, definitely.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for sharing about it, Dina.
Speaker A:And I'm really excited to see where this program takes us.
Speaker A:I'm very hopeful.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:No, thank you so much for giving me this opportunity and sharing your platform.
Speaker B:I really, really appreciate it.
Speaker B:I want to acknowledge you for the incredibly important work that you do and the depths that you go to in these conversations.
Speaker B:It's really inspiring to listen to and it's so important for generating the type of changes that we need to have different conversations, different stories with different types of people, because that's again, how we connect.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So thank you.
Speaker A:And that's a wrap on this special anniversary episode.
Speaker A:A huge thank you to Dina for bringing the clarity and conviction we all need right now.
Speaker A:If Ena Siom Stillne sounds like your kind of program, you should check out the show notes for details.
Speaker A:And if you're not Norwegian, go check out the other programs that SeaChange are running.
Speaker A:And to you.
Speaker A:Yes, you listening.
Speaker A:Thank you for being a part of this journey over the past five years.
Speaker A:Whether you've been here from day one or just found the podcast, I'm so glad you're here.
Speaker A:If you want to know more about my work or read things that I'm writing about the future of work, energy or other future related topics I get hung up on, you can find more on my substack vklavanez.substack.com and also go to my webpage storiesforthefuture.com here's to the next chapter and to building the future together.
