Episode 67
Beyond Black and White: An open conversation with Maximilian Haas on the future of oil and gas
In this episode, we delve into the complexities of the energy sector with Maximilian Haas, a geomechanical engineer at SLB.
We talk about the binary perceptions of the oil and gas industry and the crucial gray areas often missed. Highlighting Max's journey from academia to the energy sector, this episode stresses the need for open-minded dialogue and collaboration in tackling climate and energy challenges.
To learn more about Max, you can connect with him on LinkedIn
For ideas, questions or suggestions about guests, please reach out to me on Storiesforthefuture.com or on LinkedIn
Transcript
Max Haas
[:Being a meat-eater or a vegetarian being a runner or absolutely not a runner. And the list goes on. I see the same thing when it comes to how people see the oil and gas industry. Either we can get rid of with soon enough or we think it's really important and we need to hold on as long as we can. And this example and our wish to reduce the questions around oil and gas to either or. It's the topic for today's episode.
[:
and I'm on a mission to discover how we can all live good lives. Have interesting jobs, take care of our planet and the golf there. Everyone who lives here. . I believe that everyday people have the power to shape the future. Together, we can create the world that we're all excited about. Join me on this journey as we explore these ideas and remember the future is in our hands and I'm confident we can make it really good.
ion to either or. Is that we [:We have our so-called in-group people like us or our out-group people who are not like us. This leads to more polarization. And the belief that our group is entirely good while the other group is entirely bad. Today. I really want you to challenge your views a bit, open your ears, open your mind, and maybe try to bypass your brains.
it is complex, and that's a [:If you're like me and have been watching the flash with your kids perhaps, or maybe by ourself. You have a special relationship with the word particle accelerator. But that is fiction. And my guest is absolutely very real. Maximillian Hoss. Or mice. Is geo mechanical engineer. He did his PhD at CERN. And he is an example of someone recently entering the energy sector. And the company I would previously have seen as focused on oil and gas. I think his perspectives are so important.
And I [:veslem-y_1_05-02-2024_180517: welcome so much to Stories for the Future, Max, or should I say Maximilian?
Your choice.
-:veslem-y_1_05-02-2024_180517: It's great. It's very, very nice to have you as my guest in this, uh, new season, actually, uh, and with, uh, with a little bit of a different angle and topic, uh, for this season, but Uh, to start with, to place you geographically, where are you from and where do you normally live?
-:And I did my, my studies there. And then afterwards for my PhD, I, I did my PhD in Switzerland, but I was living in France because it was just much cheaper. And, uh, then afterwards, after finishing my PhD, I moved to London where I'm. Based now,
-:Did I do
-:veslem-y_1_05-02-2024_180517: it? Oh, that's nice. Oh, I love that. SLB.
That's much, much easier. Yeah. Okay, that's good.
-:veslem-y_1_05-02-2024_180517: Geo mechanic engineer. Uh, so just [00:06:00] to, uh, give some background here, uh, as you know and many of my listeners know, I have a background from oil and gas myself. Uh, and ever since I left in 2016, uh, I have seen. This need for more and better communication between this industry and people on the outside, and maybe especially people engaged in sustainability and climate related issues, where I have spent a lot of time the last few years. And to be honest, there is a lot of black and white thinking out there.
should hear more about. So, [:Actually where you come in, um, because you have, you're one of the people who have recently entered the industry. , so maybe you can start by sharing a little bit about your journey, , coming to this, uh, to what you're doing today and, and maybe also a little bit about what you do and, uh, typical projects that you're working on [00:08:00] in SLB.
Oh, uh
-:I want to dedicate three, four years of my life, um, to one special topic. Yeah. So, because I think it's a, it's a quite a rare opportunity to have this, um, chance to really delve into something for three, four years and, and, and. You know, dedicate yourself fully to this. And that, um, as I mentioned before, that led me then to Switzerland and I did my PhD at CERN, um, which some of the listeners and you might know because of the particle accelerators and, you know, the Higgs boson that they found in 2012 and.
Uh, Peter Hicks getting a Nobel prize in physics for it.
[:veslem-y_1_05-02-2024_180517: Yeah. It
sounds really, really exciting.
-:So how to reuse the material that will be excavated because they wanted to build, or they are still planning to build a new particle accelerator called the future circular collider FCC. And that's a 100 kilometer tunnel, um, in the Geneva basin. And for that, obviously for, uh, subsequent tunnel design and also environmental reasons and questions, they needed to know what the subsurface is made of, meaning the rock, but also, um, what are we going to do with the excavated material then?
erms of domains, in terms of [:And while you can say now I'm a G mechanics engineer in the oil and gas industry, but if you look back in the history of G mechanics in general, a lot of it comes actually from rock mechanics and a lot of it originates from, from, uh, civil engineering. Yeah. So in the, in the early, uh, 1920s, 1930s, in particular, Austrian, Norwegian, and also later on the Venezuelan people in Latin America and scientists.
They came up with various models of how to build a tunnel. And from there, we gained our knowledge in rock mechanics, because if you think about it, a borehole is essentially nothing else than a vertical tunnel.
-:maximilian-haas_1_05-02-2024_190516: So, um, you still excavate something, but, uh,
the purpose might be different, but, um, the techniques, um, obviously it's much smaller.
Yes. But, but, uh, the stress concentrations, um, you know, if you think of, for instance, uh, the Kirsch solutions, the Kirsch equations, they are valid for both a tunnel as well as a borehole. And, um, yeah, that was, so to say, my experience starting in civil engineering. And, um, again, it was really a great experience.
amount of knowledge that you [:Yeah. So if you think about it, the oil and gas industry has a very long traditional history and a lot of knowledge, um, has been built up up to now. And I just wanted to be a part of that. Yeah. And, and, um, I want to have something new. And also geomechanics or rock mechanics is still kind of a niche domain, you know, geophysics for instance is huge.
Yeah. Uh, we are not that many people, yeah. Especially also in, in, in the industry in general, in other companies. So, um, yeah, that's when I decided to, to join the oil and gas industry and I was very lucky and I got in there about two years ago. Yes.
-:maximilian-haas_1_05-02-2024_190516: It is really a mixture of everything. Yeah. So
especially, you know, in, in:And the energy industry covers a lot of things by now. So as you mentioned, we have the geothermal energy. We have obviously the classical oil and gas industry.
solar, um, Then we have, you [:veslem-y_1_05-02-2024_180517: Yes. Yes, exactly. So, so how do you see, you, you mentioned it before, and I think it's so interesting that you say that like, uh, uh, from, from your time in, in CERN as well, that, uh, to drill a hole is it's, it's very much the same technique or the same skills needed, so how do you see, um, the traditional oil and gas companies. Leverage [00:15:00] their employees expertise, uh, in the energy transition, like to move more people into other types of projects. How do you see that going? , is it like really noticeable these days?
-:Um, That can, and that are leveraged to lead in the transition to sustainable energy. Yeah. So a lot of companies, they now invest in renewable energies. They invest a lot in research and [00:16:00] development, um, carbon capture storage, geothermal energy, wind and solar. Um, and also the next thing is the digital integration.
Yeah. So you have a lot of partnerships, a lot of collaborations among, you know, people or organizations that might have been. strict competitors in the past that are now, you know, sitting at the same table fighting the issue together, which is reducing, uh, climate impact, the climate footprint. Yeah. And that is embedded, as I mentioned in, in, uh, Let's say technological context in a digital integration in a digital upskilling, you could even say, uh, if you think about, you know, um, artificial intelligence, uh, uh, generate AI and all these kinds of things and IOT Internet of things.
w. Yeah. So I think we see a [:veslem-y_1_05-02-2024_180517: Yes, that's, that's great to hear. And I, I wish that, uh, myself and people in general could have like this, uh, you know, when kids at school have this, uh, work week where you can be a fly on the wall
e you need to make it easier [:what people in general see, I think.
-:business in the world since its creation in the late, um, you know, 19th century, um, when the first oil wells were drilled and, um, it's, if you think back now and where we are today, the oil and gas industry was the main driver of the Industrialization, for instance, of the provision of energy, of, um, the chemicals, yeah, so every day,
ryday products we use today, [:Yeah So while it might have a bad reputation, it is actually the key driver of of Our human civilization that we live in today and and it's as usual in life. Yeah first you can say now um We have the renewable energies at the horizon. And we look, we're starting to look at them. We are at the beginning.
potential to still develop. [:So there is one thing that people should never forget. It's that there is a constant development, a constant, a constant technological growth, and also economic growth. So this, let's say, let's make it a technological advancement and the economic growth, and they go hand in hand with each other and, um, If you now take the oil and the classical oil and gas industry and you put on top the renewable energies, obviously the oil and gas industry is still makes up the most part of The energy that we consume and that we pro and that the industry is providing for, let's say
the, our daily lives.
Right.
d, um, obviously the oil and [:There was a huge increase in transparency. Yeah. So if you look in industry, if you read the news, um, you know, a lot more about the classical oil and gas industries, what they are doing, yeah. How they are reaching out to the public now, how they are investing, um, their money in, in renewable research and development, how they're creating new partnerships, how they're driving innovation.
and gas industry itself per [:It is the foundation of the world we live in today. Everything that we consume today, may it be a product, may it be directly energy in the form of, um, uh, fuel, comes in some sort of way, to keep it simple, from, um, uh, The oil and gas industry. Yeah. And we, we see a shift. Of course, we see a shift, uh, towards renewable energies.
So not only in the projects, but also when you look at our clients, when you look at, um, national oil and companies, they're all. Jumping on this new topic of renewable energy. And I think it's great. I think it also drives competition.
-:mean? How do you think that they can actually communicate that in a way that doesn't kind of just hit the wall,
-:if you go back in history when they found the wells and you know When they the first gushers and everything dwelled out of oil It it was driven then towards Energy production, energy provision, right?
Because it was a very easy and direct access to cheap energy.
-:maximilian-haas_1_05-02-2024_190516: [00:25:00] now technology advancements have led to new ways of getting energy. Yeah. If you think of solar cells, for instance, yeah. But you wouldn't have been able to think of solar panels 150 years ago, because we just didn't have the technology.
-:maximilian-haas_1_05-02-2024_190516: So it's not just blaming a full industry.
That is in the end providing every one of us with energy but more of Being humble and grateful that we have an amazing technological advancement that we can now even look into newer more Let's say renewable or as you said greener energy Yeah, it's like you first have to learn to crawl before you walk and then you can run
-:maximilian-haas_1_05-02-2024_190516: 200 years um We will, you know, have mostly nuclear energy or, um, something else.
hnological advancement will, [:But if you think about it compared to other industries, the oil and gas industry is. Or has to follow one of the most, if not the most regulated environmental regulations in the industry. So if you want to drill a well for oil, you have to undergo a tremendous amount of environmental assessments. Yeah. So that in fact, you prove you're not, for instance, Um, [00:27:00] impacting the groundwater or, um, animals nearby and so on and so forth.
Yeah. So compared to other industries, which are, which may be quite newer and do not have yet these regulations in place, the oil and gas industry is extremely well regulated in terms of environmental protection.
-:Um
-:How can you explain it to someone outside? Right? Because that person outside doesn't know how it's working inside. Right? So it's a, it's a lack of maybe knowledge. Yeah. Maybe also tolerance.
-:maximilian-haas_1_05-02-2024_190516: that's when the transparency comes in. So the oil and gas industry, if you have a question, all the people of us, you know, unless of course you ask us confidential information, yeah, but in general, we are always open to, [00:28:00] to, to discuss, to, to explain, and we do that on, in, in various instances, we go to conferences, may they be, you know, for technical or scientific people, we go to.
To public, uh, keynotes and we give talks about it and we have a lot of, you know, figures in the industry that also use their, let's say celebrity status to talk about oil and gas industry or the energy industry in general to people who might not be so familiar with the topic in order to tell them, you know, Hey guys, we are not actually that bad.
You know, we are, we are doing a lot. We are doing a lot. Yeah. And that's, that's the thing that. It's. It needs a proper education of the public for, for, for the oil and gas industry or the energy industry in general. But that I think, again, is greatly driven by these renewable energies who are really pushing that, um, let's say public outreach and that, uh, transparency issue that it was maybe there before.
-:I have felt during the last years, at least when I've seen kind of both sides that we're talking past each other. So I think we just need more places, more arenas where we can have these discussions. And, uh, it, it's so, it's so, uh, like the people you spend time with, uh, color your opinions and that goes for either side. Uh, so I think we just need to mingle more, I think, uh, in
-:So,
-:Yes.
-:Yeah. And, and, uh, as I mentioned to you before, we, we see a huge shift to renewable energy projects, uh, geothermal [00:31:00] projects, CCUS projects, uh, nuclear waste storage. Yeah. Some may say, okay, this is not, you know, a classical energy production because you actually get the energy. Get rid of, or you want to store something.
Yeah. Um, same with CCUS, but especially technically it's, it's for me personally, I think it's super interesting. Yeah. Because you have different questions. Yeah. You have also in terms of geomechanics, in terms of geology, you Still have the subsurface, obviously you still have your reservoir. Often it's a depleted oil reservoir, oil and gas reservoir.
And, um, you look from it from a different perspective. Yeah. It's not just, okay, how can I get the oil or the gas out of the subsurface? No, but how can I now inject CO2 for instance, and what it's kind of the reverse of Uh, procedure, uh, where's my ceiling rock? Yeah. How do the faults behave? Yeah. Are they gonna, are they going to be stable enough?
potentially leak? Yeah. What [:Yeah. If you think of, uh, maybe if you read reports from, uh, 30, 40, 50 years ago, every domain was, um, mostly like, uh, an isolated Island. Yeah. That, and that's actually a double, it's, it was just working as an Island. You know what I mean? And, um, obviously still oil and gas was very good at. Communicating with each other and integrating, um, the work, but it's getting even better now.
and this digital integration [:I think that's also beautiful in itself.
-:maximilian-haas_1_05-02-2024_190516: Yes. So essentially what you use, you use the heat of the, of the [00:34:00] subsurface of the earth to, to heat up a fluid. That is then used, um, in form of steam, for instance, um, to, to produce energy. Yeah, so essentially you, you accelerate or you, you generate this extra heat and that extra heat is then translated into, into kinetic energy that is then further used for.
Whatever process you want. Yeah. And you do that by circulating, um, or injecting or letting a fluid pass through a hot area in the subsurface where it gets heated up. And then, um, in one well and the second, well, you, you sort of say, produce it, produce that heated, uh, fluid in order To use that kinetic energy gain and that he'd gained, um, in, in, with respect to, to keep it very simple.
h geothermal gradient. That, [:And, um, the geothermal energy topic, and I'd say also the domain in general, it's, it's starting now. Yeah. So I think there is a huge potential and we see it both in, in. In our company, but also industry wide that we have even, uh, startups and, uh, for instance, the Celsius, uh, geothermal company that is dedicating its whole purpose on to your thermal energy and just summary, uh, energy recovery.
Um, so. We really put our hopes as an industry, uh,
y fluid or any heated fluid. [:To act as an additional source of energy
-:maximilian-haas_1_05-02-2024_190516: or cyclic, cyclic energy. Yeah. So,
or even seasonal energy, because if you think of the window, if you think of monsoons, even you even have, it's in, in seasonal periods. Yeah. So yes, it, it, it's, you have to think of it in a big picture. Yeah. You have different, smaller wheels that all operate on a, on a big wheel, right?
can, you know, scale up the [:Um, To control it the way you need it, or the industry needs it, or in,
as a matter of fact, as the public needs it, it needs it in the end.
-:for so many applications.
So yeah.
-:veslem-y_1_05-02-2024_180517: No. Yeah.
-:veslem-y_1_05-02-2024_180517: it is. Great. So we are wrapping up, up now, I think, but I have, um, uh, one final question. Since this, uh, podcast is called Stories for the Future, we need [00:38:00] to talk about the future. So I have, it's very, it's a bit shocking to me because when I started this podcast in 2020, uh, it doesn't feel that long ago, but then I said like, imagine 10 years into the future, that is 2030.
w suddenly I realized that is:maximilian-haas_1_05-02-2024_190516: I do see that in the future. Yeah. And I do think that the energy companies are the ones who are driving it. Yeah. So, um, well to take your number, uh, because it's in 10 years, so 2034, I think the energy industry will have undergone a significant transformation. Um, there will, there will have been a global shift.
els, for instance, and their [:I think you can break it down into some key aspects of this transformation.
Yeah. So first, as we just discussed, you have these increased renewable energy integration. So oil and gas companies will have significantly increased their investments in the renewable energy sources such as solar wind, geothermal power, but. They will also have it built on a much larger scale. Yeah. So we will have large scale renewable energy projects.
A diversification of energy [:So as I just mentioned, not only oil and gas, but also solar, wind, geothermal. So we have new players in the game, so to say, yeah, which have, which will have taken a certain percentage of the market share, they will also drive. Economic growth. They will also drive technological advancement. So it's a, it's an interplay among all those energy players.
Subdomains like oil, gas, you know, solar, wind, geothermal, and many more
to come that they will exchange the knowledge they will drive the technological advancement and they will, um, how should I say, push even for further innovations. Yeah. So. Those are two key points, I think. But then obviously you also have other points such as there will be a focus on energy efficiency.
key energy domains now even [:And of course it will, it should always need some sort of. Human quality control. Yeah, but we will develop codes and algorithms that are more reliable in particular also to apply it on the energy industry. Yeah. So oil and gas or energy companies will have embraced that digital these digital technologies.
something we have to tackle [:I think that's the right approach. And that's also what we should push for.
-:goal, I think.
-:veslem-y_1_05-02-2024_180517: Yes. It is. Think of this, like this decade we're living in or these decades. It's [00:44:00] super exciting actually. So
-:And we should also. Uh, learn to appreciate
-:You actually almost made me want to go back to
-:veslem-y_1_05-02-2024_180517: Yeah. That's good that
, uh, all your exciting work [:maximilian-haas_1_05-02-2024_190516: Absolutely.
for the future.com. Or just [:
