Episode 85
Money Isn't the Enemy: A Chat with Holly Smith on Purpose-Driven Finance
Holly Smith is shaking things up in the world of impact investing, and trust me, you don’t want to miss this one!
At just 25, she’s already made quite the splash, transitioning from a psychology background to making a dent in the world of sustainable finance. Now based in Singapore, Holly’s not just talking the talk; she’s part of running a venture studio that’s all about driving positive change, alongside hosting monthly impact investing coffee mornings for changemakers.
If you’ve ever thought finance was just for the experts, consider this your wake-up call! We’re diving into how money can be a powerful tool for good, and Holly’s here to show us that finance is not the enemy; it’s all about who uses this as a tool and how.
And that's not all. I promise, you'll be both inspired and impressed. Enjoy!
Connect with Holly on LinkedIn.
Want to be a guest on Stories for the future: Beyond the Bubble? Send Veslemoy Klavenes-Berge a message on PodMatch.
You can always find more information about the podcast and my work on storiesforthefuture.com
For more writing, all podcast updates and behind-the-scenes stuff, go to vklavenes.substack.com
Transcript
Hello.
Speaker A:Hello and welcome back to another episode.
Speaker A:I'm Beslmay Klavnesparge and this is Stories for the Future, a podcast where we try to break some bubbles and build bridges for a better world.
Speaker A:Today I'm talking to Holly Smith and wow, am I impressed.
Speaker A:Holly is one of those people who just makes you wonder how on earth they managed to do so much in such a short time.
Speaker A:Holly is only 25 years old, but she's probably done more to shape the future than most people manage in a lifetime.
Speaker A:With a background in psychology, not finance, Holly somehow found her way into the world of impact investing and not just as an observer.
Speaker A:She's now based in Singapore, running a purpose driven venture studio gathering change makers or monthly coffee mornings.
Speaker A:And because why not writing a book to help the rest of us make sense of how money can actually drive positive change.
Speaker A:So if you ever felt like finance isn't for people like you, this episode is your invitation to think again.
Speaker A:Let's dive in.
Speaker A:Holly, welcome so much to Stories for the Future.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker A:I just have to say you really impress me.
Speaker A:And I think you graduated like three years ago with a bachelor in psychology and now you're an impact investing lead in Singapore.
Speaker A:So you have to explain this to us.
Speaker A:How does someone with non finance roots end up in the world of impact business investing and you don't just like dabble in it.
Speaker A:To me it seems like you're really like making a dent.
Speaker A:So please explain this to us.
Speaker B:I really enjoy telling people because I guess I enjoy doing things the non traditional way.
Speaker B:I don't fit in in many ways and taking the well trodden path is not really how I do things and I like to show people that they can too.
Speaker B:So yeah, I do have a bachelor's of science in psychology.
Speaker B:So I studied psychology as a health science and I was going down the route of behavior change.
Speaker B:I thought maybe policy, something like that because I could see that when it comes to health policy, behavior change and psychology was being utilized at a government level.
Speaker B:But what about for our environmental concerns and behaviors that could enhance progress towards the sustainable development Goals or reduce harm in the world?
Speaker B:Why are we not using psychology as much there?
Speaker B:But how did I not pursue policy and end up in impact investing?
Speaker B:Well, I'm a self declared activist.
Speaker B:Every day I wake up I am an activist just by existing in the spaces that I do.
Speaker B:And I was quite typical for a woman in the west that my financial literacy was very much kept to budgeting.
Speaker B:Like I'm.
Speaker B:I'M great at budgeting.
Speaker B:I knew everything about the difference between, you know, care for the pennies, the pounds, the car for themselves, and, you know, how to diversify, diversify my income streams and this kind of thing.
Speaker B:But when it came to economics or words like investing or endowment or anything like that, I just thought it was for evil people, for people who are selfish and only cared about being wealthy and exploiting others to achieve that.
Speaker B:I had such negative connotations around that world and it was ignorance and also, I think, a kind of a rhetoric that I was exposed to that villainized wealth and anything to do with money and really championed the struggle and championed grassroots and people that rise from nothing.
Speaker B:And, you know, activism's about anybody can do anything from wherever you are.
Speaker B:Like, you use the power that you have.
Speaker B:And so I just steered clear of that world a lot.
Speaker B:And yet somehow at uni, you know, I launched a zero waste shop and I started to dabble in the power of the consumer and how that plays a role in supply and demand and the message that you send, you know, every dollar or pound or peso that you spend costs a vote into the world, the kind of world that you want to see.
Speaker B:And slowly I started to see money as a tool, actually, and very specifically a campaign by people and planet around universities divesting from fossil fuels and the call for Barclays to divest from fossil fuels.
Speaker B:At the time, Barclays were the leading funder of fossil fuels when it comes to banks and seventh in the world.
Speaker B:And if you want the latest, you can look up banking on climate chaos.
Speaker B:They release an annual report.
Speaker B:I love their work so much.
Speaker B:It's a group of NGOs and think tanks that bring all that together.
Speaker B:Um, and I was this poster child, like environmental activist for my university and my, my community had this zero waste shop and oh no, all along I've held a Barclays account.
Speaker B:And I felt so fraudulent and, and not just fraudulent, but what was this all for if actually I was undermining all my effortful work creating communities, creating awareness, running campaigns, protesting in, you know, peacefully in the streets and all, all this kind of thing, when actually my, my hard earned money was working against the causes I cared about.
Speaker B:And so I shut down my Barclays and I sent them a letter and I told them why I was leaving.
Speaker B:And then I was pursuing, well, okay, I found the bad guy.
Speaker B:Not just the bad guy, the worst guy.
Speaker B:But where can I find a good guy?
Speaker B:Where can I find a good bank account?
Speaker B:And that actually proved a lot more tricky and it was at the time where greenwashing wasn't being regulated by the UK advertising standards yet.
Speaker B:It was just kind of coming to light, that kind of conversation.
Speaker B:So I didn't know what I could trust when I did read things or maybe that like Triodos is pretty cool.
Speaker B:But at the time, you know, he had to pay for the privilege and I was just a 20 year old student, like I can't afford such a service and yeah, so I guess what I would call it now is like negative screening and best in class, which are investment principles.
Speaker B:So I got rid of the bad, the worst one, and just had to settle for the best of what I could find was less left or like the least bad.
Speaker B:But it started to open up this big conversation about I can put in all this effort to change the world, but actually and small things do add up.
Speaker B:I'm glad that I did so much work in consumer behavior and my personal lifestyle as well as my peers.
Speaker B:But what about the bigger picture?
Speaker B:And I started to increase my financial literacy and realized, ah, financial literacy and political literacy are actually a tool in my activist toolkit.
Speaker B:Not that, you know, if I said before finance and money is the root of all evil now I saw it as the root of all change and potential and power.
Speaker B:And I didn't think, oh yeah, now's the time to go and get a career in finance.
Speaker B:I just fell into it, which, how does one do that without any financial literacy?
Speaker A:That's my question.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Well, it's because I was looking for solutions that didn't exist for me.
Speaker B:So there weren't, whether it's sustainable investing or banks that I could trust what they were saying or you know, these kind of things.
Speaker B:Financial services that aligned with my values I couldn't find or I couldn't find that were accessible to me.
Speaker B:So there were sustainable investment options that had account minimums of £250,000.
Speaker B:And to be clear, I did not have that at 20 and nor did I have that to spare.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Although you know, I know there are investment apps or accounts where I could go in and I could pick the individual funds or ETFs or stocks.
Speaker B:I didn't know how to do that, so I just knew what I cared about.
Speaker B:And yeah, so at some point I was doom scrolling on LinkedIn and thinking about maybe I should consider working in environmental issues rather than volunteering because I was pursuing this psychology career and I thought, oh, maybe I'll switch it up, I'll do my well being, accessibility advocacy stuff as a volunteering.
Speaker B:And then I'll pursue environmental stuff as a career, switch up a bit, see what happens.
Speaker B:And I found a fintech startup advertising for internship roles and they were building an impact investing retail app.
Speaker B:Great, you're building what I need and you are recruiting for the skills that I have.
Speaker B:And that it was, it was just, it was just perfect.
Speaker B:And I said, I need what you're building, let me help you build it.
Speaker B:And that is very much how I've approached most of my jobs since.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So that's, and critically on the, the finance piece is that I was, I was fortunate that the, the people that founded that company, what they said to me is that we can teach you everything you need to know about finance and as you grow we can support you with in house like training and where relevant external courses and this kind of thing.
Speaker B:But we cannot teach you your passion and your values.
Speaker B:That's, we can't, we can't teach candidates that.
Speaker B:And that's the basis upon which they recruited, you know, a drive to learn a passion and alignment with the company values.
Speaker B:And that's why they had great employees.
Speaker B:And I think only a handful of people came from finance and at the peak size, including all the interns, I think we had like 20 to 30 people at one point, which is great for a startup, a fintech startup to have like four people from finance.
Speaker B:And that made it really a great place and authentic.
Speaker B:And how to say like if you want to build an investment thesis for climate action, you need people who understand climate change.
Speaker B:If you want it for healthcare inclusion, you need people to understand on the ground what are the barriers to accessing healthcare.
Speaker B:Otherwise your investment thesis is just pulled out of thin air and will not be successful in return, financial return or impact return.
Speaker B:So yeah, that's how I got in.
Speaker B:I was an activist that discovered finance as a tool.
Speaker A:Yeah, fascinating.
Speaker A:But how did you then because you're from the uk, how did you end up in Singapore and why?
Speaker A:Not that it's not a nice place to be, but yes.
Speaker B:So I loved that first company very, very dearly.
Speaker B:And there are things that you have to trade off when in the impact space actually in general, whether you're building an impactful business, an impactful career or you're an impact investment fund, you have to make trade offs at certain points, whether it, like let's say for Horizon, how quickly will you make that impact versus how quickly you will make the money back.
Speaker B:And so sometimes you might prioritize making money back first because you can make greater impact later or other times you say, okay, but it's so urgent.
Speaker B:We need to do impact now.
Speaker B:We build the profitability later.
Speaker B:And for that company, there were areas where we had to prioritize return over impact.
Speaker B:And that meant investment portfolio was primarily focused in developed economies.
Speaker B:And we all shared the same sentiment that we wanted to reach further.
Speaker B:So we had these nonprofit partnerships that were based in emerging markets, but our actual investment portfolio was in developed economies.
Speaker B:And so when that company closed, I still felt very strongly about that, that I wanted to contribute, like my, My time, my energy, my skills, my younger, most energetic years with most tolerance to, to volatility and change.
Speaker B:Because I have no responsibilities in terms of like, family or mortgages or anything.
Speaker B:I wanted to contribute to places that could feel it the most.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I decided to export my education, skills and privilege out of Europe and out of the West.
Speaker B:But before I landed somewhere, I wanted to make sure I had contextual understanding.
Speaker B:So I took my savings and my backpack and I lived in south and Southeast Asia for one year, just over one year, actually.
Speaker B:And I had three main missions.
Speaker B:One, to see where my friends called home.
Speaker B:Because I grew up with a lot of South Asian friends and family, and some of them are first generation, some second.
Speaker B:Some people are just people that I've met along my life somehow, but I've always met them in my home context, and I wanted to meet them in their home context, particularly South Asia.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:There's a historical relationship between Britain and South Asia, and I feel it's really important to see that for myself.
Speaker B:And that was one of my second goals, which was to decolonize my mindset.
Speaker B:I'm very aware that I grew up in the British education system, where the Commonwealth is taught like, it was a happy family in year six.
Speaker B:And then we never speak about it again.
Speaker B:And it's only through like online or when you get to university that even the word like colonialism or the decolonization movement came to me.
Speaker B:And I grew up with South Asian friends.
Speaker B:And how could, how could I have not known about that my whole life?
Speaker B:So that was the second mission, was to really dig deep and explore that.
Speaker B:And the third one was to see what sustainable development.
Speaker B:And I put air quotes around that sustainable development looks like in, in south and Southeast Asia.
Speaker B:And, and so that, you know, so that when I got into rooms again with, with money or power or proximity to money and power, I could, I could advocate or speak from like, lived experience, or I could put them in touch with people who are on the ground who can actually say it better than I can, rather than just saying what I think they, they might need in that country.
Speaker B:If we're going to invest in like gender equality in South Asia, I can, I can say, hey, like I actually explored that whilst I was there and these are some of the things that came up.
Speaker B:I'd love to put you in touch with some of the women that I met or the organizations that I know that are doing that.
Speaker B:And it was, it was really, it was really confronting and really tiring.
Speaker B:And I learned how to truly listen.
Speaker B:Really, really truly.
Speaker B:And not just I'm going to this country to learn about this issue.
Speaker B:It's, I'm going here and I'm just going to observe and I'm going to listen and where appropriate, I'm going to support like I did pro bono work and volunteering.
Speaker B:But sometimes it was not appropriate for me to be involved in any way.
Speaker B:Actually my power for those contexts is what I do next rather than what I could do there.
Speaker B:And yeah, that's.
Speaker B:And so after a year, it was about time I got a job again and do something with this year of education.
Speaker B:And I knew I wanted to stay in Asia.
Speaker B:And Singapore is ideal because of the proximity to impact, but it's, you know, it's a financial hub.
Speaker B:A lot of companies and investment firms have their, have their Asia base there or it's there or Hong Kong and it's so small and so young that it wasn't really that long ago that it was a, it was a fishing village, you know, so convincing people that it's worthwhile to invest in Thailand like Indonesia, the Philippines, not only is the ASEAN Familial tie there, the, the history is there, people's families are already there.
Speaker B:But also the, the issues faced by the neighboring countries either previously were felt or are still felt by Singapore.
Speaker B:You know, we share oceans with Indonesia, we have the same plastic pollution.
Speaker B:So, you know, there's, there's things like this and it is a really tough job market and visas are really, really challenging.
Speaker B:But I felt like, okay, next step, let's try that.
Speaker B:It seems to be the place to go with all this experience I've just had.
Speaker A:Right, so now you work for a company called xcube.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So what is it that you do there?
Speaker A:And also I would love to hear about the.
Speaker A:Is in impact investing morning coffees that you lead there.
Speaker A:What is it and what does your work.
Speaker A:Yeah, how does it look today?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So xcube is a venture studio.
Speaker B:So put simply, it builds startups, it builds companies.
Speaker B:And you know there are venture studios that do all sorts of things.
Speaker A:So it's not only a focus on impact.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Or like impact investing.
Speaker B:What I, what I really value about X Cube is that they mean what they say and they take it seriously.
Speaker B:So you know the company slogan is building ideas that elevate humanity.
Speaker B:That is impact.
Speaker B:That is impact.
Speaker B:Yeah, but how do you preserve that as a company mission?
Speaker B:How do you preserve that for years to come?
Speaker B:How do you embed that in your practices?
Speaker B:Well, it's impact investing essentially, it's venturing for impact.
Speaker B:So the companies we build, they have to have an impact mission and be profitable.
Speaker B:Fundamentally have to be profitable.
Speaker B:This is not some sort of NGO program churn out situation that we are building things that are changing whatever area of impact they're trying to improve.
Speaker B:But yeah, but they're driving impact.
Speaker B:So my role there ranges from the venture level, the company level.
Speaker B:How do we build a venture strategy that generates impact and has a profitable business model?
Speaker B:And what does that look like?
Speaker B:Well, how do we know that a company like a Fintech or a Reg Tech or something for financial inclusion is actually going to be adopted by the people that we want to include in the financial system?
Speaker B:The idea market fit has to be strong, otherwise we're just noble people with good ideas thinking we're going to help these, you know, disenfranchised communities from our little bubble in the, you know, privileged Singapore studio.
Speaker B:Like you have to be in conversation with the end users.
Speaker B:So those are the kind of things we're thinking about when we're building, but then also our portfolio level.
Speaker B:So I build the impact investment thesis.
Speaker B:So what's the problem?
Speaker B:What are the solutions?
Speaker B:What do experts say are the solutions and how do we make those investable?
Speaker B:Because sometimes solutions are multi stakeholder.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like it requires governments to do something or corporations, this, this kind of thing.
Speaker B:But, but where, where do we sit in that?
Speaker B:And how can we make things investable and how can we invest in them as well?
Speaker B:And then how do we measure it, the impact measurement and management and how do we integrate that into our decision making?
Speaker B:And yeah, that, that whole and end to end.
Speaker B:I love it and I really respect that.
Speaker B:They, they brought me in for it.
Speaker B:That's they mean what they say and so they got someone in who's going to legitimize what they want to do.
Speaker B:And I think it's a really exciting space where impact investing and corporate venturing have a real opportunity to address the find the funding and financing gap for the SDGs.
Speaker B:Because we need private capital, we need more private capital moving towards the SDGs.
Speaker B:We're not short for startups coming up with ideas, but we're struggling with startups dying off in two to four years time because the funding models aren't right for them or Mojo runs out or it's a western startup that's trying to solve a Southeast Asian problem and no one's ever like stepped foot there.
Speaker B:All sorts of reasons why startups are struggling, but it's not for lack of good ideas.
Speaker B:So I'm really enjoying this.
Speaker B:It's slightly different than things I've done before, but I really enjoy what I get to do there.
Speaker B:And yeah, it's a model that can really accelerate impact development.
Speaker A:So is that this morning coffees, is that also through that company or is that something that you have started yourself?
Speaker B:Yeah, so the coffee mornings were an idea that I floated.
Speaker B:I have a part time side gig which I'll also give shout out to them which is a lend for good crowd lending platform for impact.
Speaker B:They do impact loans and I floated it to them, I said, oh, hey, I'm thinking maybe I'll start an impact investing coffee group in Singapore.
Speaker B:And at an event they hosted in Singapore, Tom Dawkins gave it a shout out.
Speaker B:And I'd only told them one hour before that I'd had this idea and it was the first time I said it out loud and he was just like, well, no time like the present.
Speaker B:So it kicked off there.
Speaker B:So I say thank you to Tom and lend4good for giving it a shout out at their event and also thanks to xcube for sponsoring the first one to get it off the ground.
Speaker B:And you know, they've both been real champions of it since.
Speaker B:But you know, it just, it all starts with the WhatsApp group and you know, we have 100 members in the WhatsApp group and I have quite like strict rules.
Speaker B:No spam, no pitching, impact investing only.
Speaker B:So it's not like Singapore has so many sustainable finance like groups, events and they're full of spam.
Speaker B:And I really struggle to find ones that actually make time for impact investing and not just talk about ESG all the time.
Speaker B:And I think that's just part of the market's growth like Singapore's literacy and sustainable finance is increasing and improving and I decided, well, I'm going to accelerate that for impact investing.
Speaker B:So yeah, we have a monthly meetup.
Speaker B:Um, again I say they're like rules, but it's more, it's more values that I want to instill so the coffee mornings I do give like a loose theme to try and bring the right people to the right room because not everyone attends every time.
Speaker B:But if they're, you know, if people came because they want to talk about impact return trade off or they want to talk about how to speak between investee and investor and the expectations from each other for measuring and communicating impact and this kind of thing, well then they'll turn up and get to speak to each other.
Speaker B:Sometimes the conversation is hard to control and the theme is abandoned.
Speaker B:But I really, I make it clear that this is this, you need to leave the coffee morning having felt that it's added value to your life that you've, you've met some, at least one person that you want to have a one to one coffee with afterwards because they could be a potential partner, they could help your professional growth, they could be a client.
Speaker B:So it's not never pitch, it's just don't come here to pitch.
Speaker B:And I, I want to build and enhance the impact investing ecosystem here because we spend so much time with our heads down trying so hard to get it right to figure out how do we do this, how do we do this for the Southeast Asian context when all our venture capital models are imported from the West?
Speaker B:How do I figure this out?
Speaker B:Well, if I looked up and looked around, I'd find out that the legend of higher education impact measurement actually is across the table from me.
Speaker B:And she's worked for 20 years in this and she is the go to person.
Speaker B:So now I have chats with her about impact measurement frameworks and how to navigate between large institutions versus a tiny enterprise and how to tailor your impact report to reflect that.
Speaker B:And yeah, so I really, it's been going for seven months, I think seven, eight months and yeah, every, every time now is max 20 at the coffee morning.
Speaker B:It's over subscribed.
Speaker B:I had to start with the Luma event management to organize a wait list but it's, it's really awesome and I love what happens there and, and people respect it and get the value that they want out of it.
Speaker B:So yeah, I love it.
Speaker A:So would you say that?
Speaker A:Because my next question is a bit tied to this.
Speaker A:So my question is what type of people come to these events and would you say that there are also people coming that are not necessarily into impact investing in the first place?
Speaker A:They are more curious.
Speaker A:Like I'm just using myself as an example who thinks that when I hear the word investing it's either like you touched on in the beginning, I Think of real like big wealth or the experts.
Speaker A:So what kind of people do they attract?
Speaker A:And yeah, how can you attract people who are kind of a bit scared of the world?
Speaker B:Yeah, I definitely, I'm very welcoming of people who are curious.
Speaker B:I understand with the themes sometimes I use industry terms which is so that sometimes maybe that session is more for the professionals that want to come in and network with each other but other times it's more open house style, learn about X impact investing for everyday people kind of style because that's how I got in.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I spend a lot of time speaking to students or I haven't written for a while but I used to write for sustainability for students, their finance articles which is digesting finance for environmentalists.
Speaker B:How to show them what is out there.
Speaker B:Because that's where I was, that's how I came in.
Speaker B:So when people say they want to democratize impact investing, I see that as not just making it easier and more accessible and the right shape and size for people who need to be invested in like the small businesses or startups, but also the individual retail investor, the everyday person, you and me, not just the account minimums like the ticket size to participate, but also making it easier for us to understand because I'm not qualified to be a fund manager.
Speaker B:I couldn't do that.
Speaker B:But I do understand impact investing and I can see now what words I didn't know before in the finance world.
Speaker B:I can name examples of companies that conduct impact investment that way and I can make it a real world tangible example and I can point across my network and say hey, that person over there does things like that.
Speaker B:Or, or yeah, I can translate it to impact driven people, how it makes sense.
Speaker B:So yeah, the group, I actually recently did a poll to find out who's in the group since it first was created.
Speaker B:And there are a lot of people in finance and philanthropy mostly not working in impact investing, but they are trying to carve out a pool of money in their existing role to put towards impact investing.
Speaker B:Or maybe it's a foundation that wants to learn more about the impact measurement and management side of things.
Speaker B:Or actually they want to engage with impact investing to increase their pool of money.
Speaker B:So whatever returns they get they just put back into another initiative.
Speaker B:So it's still technically philanthropy because they're donating and giving everything away and not getting a return as a foundation, but they're kind of capacity building their pool of money in a way.
Speaker B:But then there are consultants.
Speaker B:So people who either consult firms impact funds or they're Consulting the businesses how to make their business more impactful or the other way around.
Speaker B:People who started with a project, how to turn it into a commercial option.
Speaker B:Then there's students, career changes.
Speaker B:People who don't want a career in it aren't a student, but they have a financial advisor and they want to know how to tell them, this is what I want, please.
Speaker B:There's academics as well.
Speaker B:It's valuable to have a range of people.
Speaker B:So I, I do like that.
Speaker B:And there's actually a few people who have learned about impact investing and it resonates with their lifestyle approach, which is something I've spoken about before.
Speaker B:They look at that.
Speaker B:So it's a freelance marketer who looks at her entire portfolio and there are some items that are fully pro bono and some things that are fully for money, but she wants to increase that middle section where things are for impact and are making her money.
Speaker B:And, you know, she's starting to resonate with the impact investing approach where you put a value on both, you measure both.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, they're coming for the philosophy of impact investing, which I, which I appreciate.
Speaker A:Very interesting.
Speaker A:So, yeah, if I was in Singapore, I would definitely be on the wait list.
Speaker A:So I think I read somewhere that you're thinking of maybe writing a book for like activists who want to think like this, and I welcome that.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker A:Is it like a serious idea?
Speaker B:Yeah, it is.
Speaker B:I mean, it started with an article.
Speaker B:I've written the article a couple times, improved it, done it for different audiences.
Speaker B:And actually I have so much to say about this other article was 10 tools of a Financial Activist.
Speaker B:And it's exactly the growth journey that I described earlier.
Speaker B:Where I went from it was I had charity subscriptions, so I had my donation.
Speaker B:I ran clothes swaps, so I opted out of fast fashion and I bought from charity shops, but I also swapped my clothes or I lived.
Speaker B:I grew up in a village, so sometimes money didn't, didn't exist.
Speaker B:We just swapped apples for pears.
Speaker B:You know, I brought a bag of apples into school and I brought home a bag of pears from my friend who had a great pear tree.
Speaker B:That, that's.
Speaker B:So those are the kind of things.
Speaker B:But it develops to boycotts, whether it be you boycott a brand or you boycott an industry, like I've.
Speaker B:I will never work for oil and gas.
Speaker B:That's my, that's my hard line.
Speaker B:But how far I trace into my, my paycheck, well, that's.
Speaker B:There's only so much I can do about that.
Speaker B:Like, I work in tech so there's only so much I can really divest from that.
Speaker B:But I've decided I'm going to boycott the, the industry.
Speaker B:They will never be directly paying my salary.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You know, thinking about later, more advanced things like investment divestment, active ownership or shareholder advocacy, whichever way you call it.
Speaker B:And yeah, thinking about those things and I just talk so much about this all the time to people and yeah, for a while I felt a book brewing inside me, but I didn't know.
Speaker B:I've got, I've got a lot of ideas.
Speaker B:I've got three book ideas that I want to do, but this is the one that is the most ready and the one that I'm most informed about.
Speaker B:And yeah, so that's, that's essentially what it will be, is, is a book version of, of that article.
Speaker B:And I want it to be for normal people.
Speaker B:So I'll probably will have to step away from the word activist and financial.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Because the best financial activism books already out there don't mention those two words at all.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Even within, you know, change makers and people who live according to their values, the word activist can be quite emotionally charged.
Speaker B:And you know, I think about when I was an activist, how I felt about the word financial or finance versus money.
Speaker B:One feels very easy to understand and the other one seems really complex and scary.
Speaker B:So, you know, I'll think about how to, how to frame it.
Speaker B:But I am really serious about it and I have mentors for each chapter that have said they would willingly like review the chapter because they're somebody who has worked in that specific area or, or I've collected consent from people who work in that have projects or companies that I want to use as examples of how.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not just me harping on about things.
Speaker B:I want people to finish that chapter and go, huh, okay, I've got a value about, I don't know, like maybe it's animal cruelty.
Speaker B:They don't want to buy products that contribute to animal cruelty or they don't want to invest in companies that, that do that.
Speaker B:But how do they, how do they use that tool for that value?
Speaker B:Well, there should be a list or a few case studies or examples.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So yeah, yeah, I am really serious about it.
Speaker B:I just need to prioritize it.
Speaker B:But it's hard because I work really hard.
Speaker A:As you said before we started, there are not enough hours in the day.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Never enough hours in the day.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:But yeah, I, I had a lot of, I guess it is imposter syndrome, but who am I to write a book?
Speaker B:Like, even writing articles or LinkedIn posts sometimes, like, what am I doing?
Speaker B:I'm 25.
Speaker B:Why am I telling people about these things?
Speaker B:But the things that I write about or the things that I've got to say, I'm not hearing other people say them or I'm not hearing them say, say it outside of our spaces.
Speaker B:And I think that's something that I've taken from studying psychology.
Speaker B:Everything we learn in psychology, everything we research and we discover, we translate it into understandable terms and we communicate it to people.
Speaker B:Otherwise, what is the point in discovering, oh, this behavior is really harmful to our health, or this behavior combined with this environmental cue actually will help people quit smoking.
Speaker B:And it's revolutionary.
Speaker B:And it has far higher success rates than anything else.
Speaker B:We don't keep it to ourselves.
Speaker B:And that's how I feel about impact investing and all this stuff that I learn.
Speaker B:And there were things that I learn about how even Southeast Asia and South Asia works and all these people who are on a very noble mission to, you know, move their career here like I did, but they can be ignorant and harmful.
Speaker B:I feel really passionately about sharing these learnings because otherwise, what's the point in having learned it?
Speaker B:I'm not.
Speaker B:I guess.
Speaker B:So there's a, there's a tenet in impact investing called like additionality and investor contribution.
Speaker B:And it's about, would this impact have existed without you having invested in it?
Speaker B:That's the additionality.
Speaker B:But the investor contribution is, aside from money.
Speaker B:What are you doing to advance this impact?
Speaker B:So aside from me working in impact investing, my investor contribution, my additionality is the network building and capacity building with the coffee mornings, but also this education piece and making it simple for people to understand and talking about it.
Speaker B:So I use that when I'm feeling about the imposter syndrome, I go to myself, well, is anybody else going to write this book?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:And I think this is exactly why I should do it because you come from, you're not the typical finance investment dude.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So, so people can relate and I think that is so important so you can speak to, to normal people in air quotes, people like me.
Speaker A:So, yeah, you should definitely not have imposter syndrome.
Speaker A:I know we all have it, so it's, it's normal.
Speaker A:But yeah, I just welcome everything you write about this.
Speaker A:So keep going, please.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:So, yeah, and okay, I think we, we spoke about this a little bit before and I think we, it's like I usually say these days that it's kind of a hurricane outside, so we have to talk about weather.
Speaker A:It's kind of this, these times that we're living in.
Speaker A:That was an image by the way, the hurricane.
Speaker A:But with all the political division, the economic unrest, all the things happening in the world, how do you see this work that you're doing or maybe also impact investing in general playing a role to maybe bridge some of those divides or help us forward in a positive way?
Speaker B:Yeah, sometimes when we move in the impact circle, we can get into a really feel good space, a really positive.
Speaker B:And I don't mean impact investing, I just mean in the impact space like people who are trying to do good in the world.
Speaker B:And we know that if we look anywhere else we can find the negative.
Speaker B:And so we create all these spaces where we're championing all these cool things.
Speaker B:There's, there's whole like news outlets dedicated to positive climate news or positive anything.
Speaker B:I think one, one magazine is called Happy Full, which, which is mental health related, but it's just the same kind of concept.
Speaker B:But as an activist I, I like to see actually what the reality is and what more I can do.
Speaker B:But not just, not just more, but where, like where actually is my energy needed.
Speaker B:And yes, when, when big things happen that affect people I know as well as people I don't know across the world, it can be really overwhelming and particularly when you're just a little fish and you're just lots of little fishies and somebody caused a big wave and we're all scrabbling together.
Speaker B:But I am very much a power to the people person and a big believer in the little things add up.
Speaker B:But also I remember this visual and it was a few years ago about elections.
Speaker B:People who don't vote and the reason they don't vote is because they don't think it's worth it.
Speaker B:I'm just one person.
Speaker B:What difference is it going to make?
Speaker B:I have to take time out of my day to go, maybe I don't even get paid day off, I have to wait in line with no water, all these kind of things.
Speaker B:And actually like it's the, the missing third.
Speaker B:A third, a third of people didn't vote in like the UK election or the US election.
Speaker B:And, and that completely changes results.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so, so when I feel very.
Speaker B:What about things that happen?
Speaker B:I think about, well, I can disengage or, or I can show up.
Speaker B:And when it comes to impact investing, it is so critical that we keep going.
Speaker B:I mean the UN Sustainable Development Goals are just one framework Right.
Speaker B:But it's a pretty impressive framework and they call for impact investing.
Speaker B: if we are ever to achieve the: Speaker B:And it's because private, private capital needs to be channeled and we can't just wait for the higher ups or people who can afford a wealth manager or institutional investors or pension funds to think about these things.
Speaker B:What about you and I?
Speaker B:What about me?
Speaker B:Like what, what about us?
Speaker B:We've got private capital.
Speaker B:We've, we've, you know, it's not much, but together it's quite a lot actually.
Speaker B:And if we can build things that are more accessible to the everyday person, it's like philanthropy, right?
Speaker B:Sure, there are major donors, but also I've, I've had ten pound monthly subscriptions for things and so have a lot of my friends.
Speaker B:And how does, how does it all add up?
Speaker B:And in such a global world, whether you travel, whether you live where you grew up and you'll die where you grew up, we're all global citizens because we're all affected and participate in a global economy.
Speaker B:Obviously some countries, your participation in a global economy is far lesser as an individual, but your impact by the, like, the way that you are impacted by the global economy is still felt because of the way it's built.
Speaker B:So I think about it like that.
Speaker B:We're all global citizens, so we all have an opportunity to participate in shaping the globe and the way that we want to see the world moving forwards, to be more equal, prosperous, sustainable, all these kind of things.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I feel really passionate about it being part of the solution, but it involves a lot of democracy and respect of democracy too.
Speaker B:Of all the tools.
Speaker B:Every time I ever speak about whether it's inclusive finance, whether it's sustainable investing, whatever it is, and at the end of the panel or the article, you know, you have to think about what's the take home message.
Speaker B:The thing I always say is that financial and political literacy are the two most powerful things you can do to make a change like that.
Speaker B:You can do that today, you can start building and enhancing that today.
Speaker B:And the moment you start to increase that, you start to increase the power that you can yield in the world.
Speaker A:True, Yes.
Speaker A:I feel so inspired by listening to you.
Speaker A:I just want to go find something to read or something, something to learn.
Speaker A:So zooming out, beyond finance, you can include finance, but beyond that, what gives you hope about the future that we're building and what role do you think that you have mentioned it already, but what kind of roles can we all play in this future?
Speaker B:Okay, so I'm going to say two things that will kind of seem like they contradict each other.
Speaker B:I keep saying, oh, I'm really passionate about X, but I tend not to say things that I don't feel really strongly about.
Speaker B:So here are two more things I'm very passionate about.
Speaker B:And what I see in terms of roles for the future is that this is intergenerational.
Speaker B:I really despise when people say that my generation and the one after me is going to save the world because I'm Gen Z or Gen Z and the oldest person who is gen Z is 30.
Speaker B:How many people in decision making roles with, you know, a good stack of wealth behind them are under 30?
Speaker B:Really not that many.
Speaker B:I'm sure you know, you can name a few poster children, but it's really not that many.
Speaker B:The people who hold power and decision making right now are not my generation or the one younger.
Speaker B:So in building the future that we want to see and want to have, it is an intergenerational conversation and we need to respect the upstream and downstream sharing of knowledge.
Speaker B:There are, there are elder generations, especially those that are pre industrialization or pre plastic in the industrialized world but in non industrialized world or becoming, you know, those older generations and the wisdom and the knowledge, there's first nations and indigenous knowledge as well if you think about elder generations of just humanity.
Speaker B:But also, you know, even within my generation, my sister is eight years younger than me and we, you know, got two brothers in the middle there too and we're all Gen Z, but we have grown up in a completely different tech generation.
Speaker B:How we interact with the world is completely different.
Speaker B:And it means that in order to understand how I could instill passion, values, drive in someone who is just 16 or 17 right now has got to be a completely different approach to somebody who was growing up in the tech relationship that I had when I was 16 or 17.
Speaker B:And it's changing so much more rapidly than just these 15 year groups of what we call generations.
Speaker B:So that's what I think is really key for all of our role is to recognize that we have to have conversations up and down age groups and recognize where we hold power right now, how we can advocate for those who don't have power up and down age groups as well as just intersectionally in general.
Speaker B:But that's, that's really important because you know, at COP there's a youth day right and it's only youth that attend the Youth Day events.
Speaker B:It's not the older groups that make decisions for youth.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker A:Right, right.
Speaker B:Or if it is, if it is older people like decision makers, it's only associated in the education space, like people who work at universities or NGOs that have youth beneficiaries.
Speaker B:It's not the CEO of a corporation who sells to youth consumers.
Speaker B:That's really what I see for the role.
Speaker B:Conversely, which might now seem like a contradiction to what I said about my generation.
Speaker B:Isn't the one that's going to save everyone, we're all going to save us.
Speaker B:Is that what gives me hope is the great wealth transfer?
Speaker B:Because Gen Z and Millennials as well.
Speaker B:Gen Z and Millennials and we're yet to see for what happens for Gen Alpha regarding wealth transfer.
Speaker B:But our generations are going to experience the greatest wealth transfer in history because of how economies have grown and the way that cost of living has gone up and gone down and all of this kind of stuff.
Speaker B:It means that we're going to inherit more than any other generation has inherited before.
Speaker B:And you know what's different about our generations to the ones before is the way that we make decisions that we're so values led that the world is not going to know what to do when suddenly the most values driven generation holds the most wealth.
Speaker B:And for the first time ever, women are going to hold more than 50% of the world's wealth of the, of, of all money in the world.
Speaker B:So what's going to happen to economies when women actually have a stake in the world now?
Speaker B:Not just, you know, organizing household budgets like the actual decision making power.
Speaker B:And that's what really gives me, gives me hope because even if all this chaos happens between now and the time we start and the wealth transfers started, right.
Speaker B:Millennials are the generation up and women are inheriting.
Speaker B:And that's also with changes of law and this kind of thing, women gaining access to a bank account for the first time, that's really advancing land ownership rights.
Speaker B:That's really, it's still far behind than it should be, but it's moving.
Speaker B:But it's really going to change the game because when women are in charge of money, communities are lifted.
Speaker B:And so what happens when most of the world's money is held by women?
Speaker B:The world would be lifted.
Speaker B:So that's, that's really what, what gives me hope as well.
Speaker B:And part of why I'm on this big mission of like financial literacy, especially on the impact investing side, because the financial advisors and wealth Managers and just people who work in finance that provide services, they're gonna have to know how to do this in order to serve us because we don't take subpar performance at all.
Speaker B:I mean, just, we hold our governments to account, we hold corporations to account.
Speaker B:And when things are not being done properly, we take action ourselves.
Speaker B:So it's a real opportunity for the world of finance and corporations and business to be ready for that and to start now.
Speaker B:Else they will be left behind and we'll, we'll just create our own funds.
Speaker B:I mean, it's happening already.
Speaker B:There are funds being made by Gen Z and millennials because don't like the way other people are doing it and they're missing out if they don't keep up.
Speaker B:So, yeah, two kind of opposing points, but they kind of.
Speaker A:Yeah, I see what you mean.
Speaker A:And I didn't know this about the wealth transfer and especially the part about, about women.
Speaker A:That is really interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah, looking forward to that.
Speaker B:Yeah, because Gen Z woman.
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:I can see that.
Speaker A:And because today, I mean the, the, the news are not exactly covered with women in power like the news that we see that are most like frequent these days.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, interesting shift.
Speaker A:I'm afraid we have to wrap up.
Speaker A:I could, I could listen to you for hours.
Speaker A:It's so interesting and so inspiring to listen to you and you give me hope, that is for sure.
Speaker A:So thank you so much for all your knowledge and everything that you do.
Speaker A:And you're, you're definitely a guest that I think having your back like just a few months down the line and you would have done like thousand more new things so we could do that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And thank you for giving me space to speak about my passions.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker A:So nice to have you.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker A:Wow, was that something or what do you think?
Speaker A:I am actually beyond impressed.
Speaker A:I really hope that you, like.
Speaker A:I do feel both a little bit smarter and more hopeful after talking to Holly.
Speaker A:I think she managed to make the world of finance feel, well, a little bit more human perhaps.
Speaker A:And it's a really important reminder that money isn't the enemy, it's a tool.
Speaker A:And when values let people get their hands on that tool, that's when real change happens.
Speaker A:If you want to connect with Holly or keep up with her work, I've put some links in the show notes and if you enjoy this episode, it would be really helpful if you would leave a review on your podcast player and maybe also share it with somebody that you think can benefit from listening to it.
Speaker A:And also, if you want more of everything happening behind the scenes, more writing and other good stuff stuff coming your way very soon, go to my substack and sign up there to receive all the news.
Speaker A:As always, thanks for listening.
Speaker A:I'll see you next time.
Speaker A:Same place, different story.
