Episode 76
"We don't want to be the bad guys". Oil Companies and the Green Transition, with Krista Halttunen
Today's chat is all about the energy transition and how international oil companies are navigating this tricky terrain. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Krista Halttounen, a sustainability researcher and CEO of Halton Ventures, who dives deep into her research on the oil industry's future in a world aiming for lower carbon emissions.
We explore some eye-opening insights from her PhD thesis, focusing on how these companies can adapt and perhaps even thrive amidst the green revolution. Krista shares the challenges, opportunities, and the importance of having those tough conversations—because let’s face it, if we only talk to those who agree with us, we might miss the chance to bridge gaps and spark real change. So grab your favorite drink, kick back, and let’s unravel this complex but super important topic together!
Links referenced in this episode:
- Join me on Substack!
- Your opportunity to become a supporter
Transcript
Okay, so before we get started on today's episode, I have some news for you.
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Speaker A:And then let's get to this week's episode.
Speaker A:Welcome to Stories for the Future, a podcast bringing excitement and optimism for what's ahead.
Speaker A:In this season.
Speaker A:We're exploring the energy transition, breaking down walls and bringing people together.
Speaker A:We're going to chat with all sorts of people, from veterans from the oil and gas sector to passionate climate innovators.
Speaker A:I'm Vesla Meyklavnesparge, your guide on this journey and as I like to say, we'll try on different shoes with the aim to understand more and judge less.
Speaker A:Let's begin.
Speaker A:In this episode, I sit down with Krista Haltonen.
Speaker A:She is no less than a multidisciplinary sustainability researcher.
Speaker A:She is currently the CEO of Halton Ventures, a family impact investment firm, and a visiting researcher at the center for Environmental Policy at Imperial College London.
Speaker A:I came across Krista because of her work as a researcher and her focus on Possible pathways of the global oil industry in the energy transition.
Speaker A:I heard her on another podcast, which is often what happens, and read some of her publications and I just had to learn more about this work.
Speaker A:This is yet another angle to this whole complex energy transition issue, and I really hope that you enjoy it.
Speaker A:Welcome so much to the podcast, Krista.
Speaker A:I'm so happy to have you here and I think all the way from Finland this morning.
Speaker A:Is that right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker B:Yes, I'm in beautiful, gloomy Helsinki.
Speaker A:Gloomy Helsinki.
Speaker A:Okay, is it snow or is it.
Speaker B:Like there was some snow, but our winters are getting a lot warmer, so now there was some rain last night and almost all the snow is gone, unfortunately.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's on topic, so to speak.
Speaker A:The warmer winters.
Speaker A: Imperial College in London in: Speaker A:So you spent a long time in London, but now you're in Finland.
Speaker A:So what is it that you do now?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:So I finished my PhD at Imperial.
Speaker B:Then I actually did some postdoc research at the University of Oxford on sustainable finance.
Speaker B:But just now, a couple of months ago, I moved back to Finland where I'm from after 11 years in the UK and I actually started working for my family business.
Speaker B:So I work at.
Speaker B:At our little investment company called Halton Ventures, and I'm actually the CEO and the only employee.
Speaker B:So I'm trying to set up a bit of an impact investment structure for us.
Speaker B:So still doing some academic work.
Speaker B:I'm still a visiting researcher at Imperial College in environmental policy.
Speaker B:But I'm also trying to bring some of my values into action in a different way now.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker A:Maybe we need to have a different episode about that later, maybe.
Speaker A:Yeah, great.
Speaker A:So I kind of.
Speaker A:I found you a little bit out of the blue, I would say, when I did the research for this season of the podcast.
Speaker A:And I'm so happy I did, because when I read some of your work, it was so spot on, related to everything that I'm curious about and what I'm diving into with this podcast at the moment.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And you have done so much interesting work.
Speaker A:I've read a few of your papers and I will continue reading and I would love to talk about all of them.
Speaker A:So again, maybe you have to come back, but today we will mostly focus on your PhD work.
Speaker A:Your thesis is called We Don't Want to Be the Bad Guys, Exploring the Future of International Oil Companies in a well below 2 degrees world.
Speaker A:Such a good title.
Speaker A:And I just want to start by reading two quotes that you have at the start of your thesis.
Speaker A:The first one, what a blessing the oil has been for mankind.
Speaker A:That is from John D.
Speaker A:Rockefeller.
Speaker A:And then it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
Speaker A:That is Upton Sinclair.
Speaker A:I don't know that much about Upton Sinclair, but it's a great quote and I think it kind of sets the, the stage, so to speak.
Speaker A:So to start off, could you just share a little bit about what you set out to find out with your thesis?
Speaker B:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Well, first of all, when you do a PhD, it's three and a half, four years of work in the UK at least, so it does evolve quite a lot as you go at it.
Speaker B:But the plan was always to study international oil companies and what would it look like and what would need to happen to international oil companies in a world that's in alignment with the goals of the Paris Agreement.
Speaker B:So a world of climate mitigation and a green transition.
Speaker B:And I took lots of, I tried some different angles to it, but in the end it ended up being this quite high level approach.
Speaker B:So really at a very high level, what would an oil company, especially an international oil company, look like throughout that transition and at the end of it?
Speaker B:And of course, it's a very broad question and I can't claim to have answered it fully, but we did find some quite interesting things along the way.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do you think that you ended up seeing the complexity clearer and maybe from some different perspectives that you hadn't tried out before, after finishing?
Speaker B:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker B:So I didn't have any background in the oil and gas sector, so I came very much from the sustainability background.
Speaker B:I had studied energy policy, environmental technology.
Speaker B:I had some business experience and I found this PhD project which was pitched by Imperial and also CDP, the Carbon Disclosure project.
Speaker B:And I just found it fascinating just because of some things I'd read about the oil industry and I was aware that there was maybe some kind of greenwashing or hypocrisy going on there.
Speaker B:So I just found it super interesting, but I didn't have much background in it.
Speaker B:So then over the four years I did learn so much, even just about the industry.
Speaker B:And I think also my perspective widened a lot because I had to come out of my environmentalist bubble a little bit.
Speaker B:I spoke to a lot of people working in the oil sector and also around it, which I think is really good.
Speaker B:I think one of the big learnings was around how to speak with people who you disagree with and still have a useful conversation.
Speaker B:Because I think it's very important, especially in today's world.
Speaker A:It is, it is.
Speaker A:And how did you experience or how did people greet you, welcome you when you.
Speaker A:Because you did a lot of interviews with people, professionals in the industry.
Speaker A:So did you feel openness and willingness to share and talk?
Speaker A:And how was that, you think?
Speaker B:It was varied.
Speaker B:So I did a lot of kind of cold emailing, so sending a lot of messages to people I don't know.
Speaker B:And often those got ignored.
Speaker B:I think I got a few no answers.
Speaker B:So people just said they're not interested or they don't want to talk about this topic.
Speaker B:But in general, I had quite a good experience.
Speaker B:So a lot of the people I interviewed were somehow connected to the green transition.
Speaker B:Still, not everyone, but those people were the most keen to also discuss this topic because they, they think about it a lot, like they work for oil companies, but then they also are very aware of the transition and a lot of them were actually very happy to talk to me.
Speaker B:I also, I didn't come in as.
Speaker B:I came in as a researcher, so not as an advocate.
Speaker B:So I consider myself a bit of an advocate in my own life.
Speaker B:But when I was doing my research, it's very important to be objective and impartial.
Speaker B:So I didn't come in saying like, oh, you evil oil companies, look at what you're doing.
Speaker B:But rather I was like, would you like to explain your perspective?
Speaker B:And usually people respond very well to that.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's, that's important, I think.
Speaker A:So one of the things that you explore in your thesis is the balance between oil companies current work and the existing challenge of climate action.
Speaker A:So what possibilities do you see for oil and gas professionals to use their current skills to drive the energy transition?
Speaker A:Or did you end up think that we need to think a lot bigger and have more radical change than kind of instead of the personal changes and push for change?
Speaker B:Well, I think that's quite a complicated question.
Speaker B:So I definitely think we need very radical change if we want to meet the goals of the Paris Agreement or any meaningful climate action goals at this point.
Speaker B:But I also think there is a lot of potential in the people, even in the oil industry, to create change.
Speaker B:So one thing I did study was exactly that.
Speaker B:So since oil companies are, at least some of them are talking about changing what kind of skills and infrastructure and other capabilities they could bring to the transition and are already bringing to the transition.
Speaker B:And if you think about individuals working at oil companies, which I think you asked so these international oil companies are vast and they have a very diverse workforce with very different skills.
Speaker B:So a lot of those skills would be also useful in a green energy system.
Speaker B:So for example, large project management type skills, skills around kind of geological things, offshore skills.
Speaker B:So for example, for offshore wind trading is still hugely important.
Speaker B:That's a huge thing that IOCs do.
Speaker B:So there's definitely lots of skill sets that can work in oil companies and can also work in more green energy companies or other fields.
Speaker A:Because that is something.
Speaker A:I haven't kind of ended up with an answer yet.
Speaker A:But if you look at the individuals, can you kind of advise them to stay and make the changes from within or is that like for the, for the people who really want to be part of the change is the option to, to leave?
Speaker A:And I'm kind of very divided in that.
Speaker A:And I go from that to that.
Speaker A:No, this is hopeless.
Speaker A:You have to.
Speaker A:If you want to do, really make a change, you have to do something else.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think that's an excellent question and it wasn't exactly a research question in my thesis, but it's something I've thought about a lot.
Speaker B:I don't think that's a blanket yes or no answer.
Speaker B:So I've seen both approaches.
Speaker B:So we've seen some very public people leaving their oil companies and making.
Speaker B:Being very public about it and saying that they can't agree with the values of the companies anymore and they can't be a force for good in those companies.
Speaker B:And I have a lot of sympathy for that because I don't think the oil industry is changing really at the pace anywhere near what we need.
Speaker B:On the other hand, I've spoken to very impressive individuals who do still work in international oil companies and who say that it is the best place for them to try to make a difference.
Speaker B:And they are kind of these green transition engines within the companies.
Speaker B:And to some extent I think we need both.
Speaker B:So to change any system, we need change on all sides of the system.
Speaker B:I personally probably wouldn't work for an oil company because I think it would be difficult.
Speaker B:The cognitive dissonance of working for an entity whose main purpose is to produce fossil fuels which very clearly contributes to climate change would be very difficult for me personally.
Speaker B:So I think we do need people outside of those organizations kind of calling them out and trying to effect policy change.
Speaker B:But I also have a lot of sympathy for people who do decide to stay and try to create changes.
Speaker B:And I have heard different things.
Speaker B:For example, in every company there's different people.
Speaker B:So if you are working for a company that's anti climate change or anti climate action.
Speaker B:Perhaps you can still find those pockets of people and individuals within the company to try to help you drive change.
Speaker B:So if you're just one person trying to change things alone, it's very difficult.
Speaker B:But maybe you can be part of the change if you find the right people to work with.
Speaker A:Hmm.
Speaker A:I think you're, it's, it's right that we need both, probably.
Speaker A:And I've seen that from the interviews I had with people on the podcast.
Speaker A:I had both people inside and outside.
Speaker A:And I, I also maybe think it depends a little bit on the personality, what kind of type you are and how, how you manage to, to push.
Speaker A:And also of course, the company itself and how they welcome action and maybe to some degree, activism from within.
Speaker A:Maybe.
Speaker A:You've done some really interesting research also in other publications that I've read into how international oil companies are planning for the future.
Speaker A:So could you share what you think are some the most promising ways these companies could expand into new areas while also staying true to their environmental commitments?
Speaker A:And I'm also related to that.
Speaker A:Curious.
Speaker A:Do you think that we might sometimes be too quick to dismiss their efforts as just greenwashing?
Speaker A:So that is a two part question.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Another complicated question.
Speaker A:I'm not making it easy for you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So in theory, I think it is possible for international oil companies to transition and be part of the sustainability transition.
Speaker B:This would require very, very large amounts of diversification away from their core business, which is fossil fuel production, because obviously the main source of emissions that these companies are responsible for is the production of fossil fuels and the emissions from those fossil fuels when they are used.
Speaker B:So one of the big reasons why we often think that these companies are greenwashing is that even though they talk about, oh, we invested in some green energy, or oh, we are investing in making our production processes green and low carbon, they often don't tackle this question of what about the oil and gas that you sell?
Speaker B:Because that is really the main, main, main contributor to climate change that needs to go, it needs to change.
Speaker B:So I think for, first of all, for an oil company to meaningfully engage with the transition, they need to also engage with this question of when will you reduce your oil and gas production and how.
Speaker B:And that's the question that almost no oil company really wants to face for obvious economic reasons.
Speaker B:Putting that whole question aside, if we talk about how oil companies could meaningfully contribute to the transition, I think there are avenues to diversify.
Speaker B:There isn't any One thing that's like a clear one to one fit that would replace all the revenues and profits from fossil fuel production.
Speaker B:If there was, I'm sure the companies would happily be doing that, at least some of them.
Speaker B:But there's lots of different things that need to be done for the green energy transition.
Speaker B:And a few years ago, before I Even started my PhD, there was a lot of publicity around oil companies investing in renewable energy, electricity generation, for example.
Speaker B:So renewable energy generation, that might not be the best fit for oil companies necessarily.
Speaker B:So even though they have these large project management skills, that's a very different business from fossil fuel production.
Speaker B:And we've actually seen that a lot of those companies have since then ramped down their green energy production.
Speaker B:Some other things might be a bit closer to the current business model.
Speaker B:So some examples I've given in my work is for example, offshore wind, because at least you have the offshore connection there, biofuels, so the refining connection, some companies are successful with that.
Speaker B:Maybe electric vehicle charging.
Speaker B:So converting your petrol stations to electric charging station, that's also starting to happen.
Speaker B:So this depends on kind of what part of the company's value chain we're looking at.
Speaker B:And then some kind of greener energy technologies are clearly a very good fit for oil companies.
Speaker B:So what always comes up here is carbon capture and storage and hydrogen production, especially blue hydrogen, which is made from natural gas, with carbon capture and storage.
Speaker B:So these would be quite good things for oil companies to put their resources and skills towards because they would really help the transition.
Speaker B:The problem there is of course, that no one is doing it on any meaningful scale because the profits aren't really there.
Speaker B:So then we always get into this argument like, oh, we can't make money, the regulation and incentives aren't there, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker B:Which sure, from a business perspective, I understand that.
Speaker B:But then if we look more broadly at what needs to happen and what it would mean for companies to take climate change seriously, I think they should be making a lot more an effort into these kinds of technologies.
Speaker B:So a very long answer, but I think there are a lot of things that can be done.
Speaker B:Some of them are a better fit than others.
Speaker B:Nothing is going to fully and easily replace the profits and revenues and business from fossil fuels, unfortunately.
Speaker B:Which is of course then why these companies aren't fully engaging with the question of, okay, what happens when we stop making fossil fuels?
Speaker B:And that's why there is unfortunately an element of greenwashing there often in these discussions.
Speaker B:But it doesn't take away from the fact that anything that the companies can do for the transition is still good, like any investment in green technology is good, even if it's done by an ioc.
Speaker A:I wonder if, do you think that they need to accept that for a period it won't be profitable or else it's kind of.
Speaker A:Or something else has to change?
Speaker A:Some political incentives perhaps also would help when it comes to, for instance, carbon capture and storage, also hydrogen, as you mentioned, or the other avenues that they could take.
Speaker A:They have to accept that it won't be as profitable as oil and gas for a while.
Speaker B:In short, yes, I think that is true.
Speaker B:I don't think anything, I don't know if anything can be as profitable as oil and gas, if I'm honest, which is kind of a scary thing to say, because it means that probably then the oil companies aren't willing to engage with the transition to the extent that I think they should.
Speaker B:But then it's probably true because that's what we are seeing also.
Speaker B:So this is a hugely profitable industry.
Speaker B:There's still a lot of oil and gas.
Speaker B:If you don't pump out your resources, you're basically leaving billions of dollars on the ground.
Speaker B:So I don't see what business could tell their shareholders that that's what they're going to do.
Speaker B:And that's why there is a huge, huge contradiction here in incentives.
Speaker B:So clearly we need some kind of new ways of thinking about this new regulation.
Speaker B:But I think the beginning is to just be honest about these realities that I don't at the moment, I don't see anything other than fossil fuels coming and taking their place as a profit driver for the companies, for their shareholders, for their investors, at least not right away.
Speaker B:And it's, of course, any new technology, you need to develop it, you need to build the infrastructure for it.
Speaker B:So if you're comparing the costs and profits and margins of two technologies, the one that's the incumbent one will be the better one because all the infrastructure is already there.
Speaker B:Yeah, so there's different studies.
Speaker B:I'm not an expert on this, but basically a lot of fossil fuels is just used to transport fossil fuels around the world, this kind of thing.
Speaker B:So actually, if we could use renewables, maybe the whole system could be smaller and we would actually need a lot less energy.
Speaker B:But because this is now the system that we have, we can't just be like comparing which is the better system and the cheaper system, because the one we already have is always going to be the cheaper one because it's already there.
Speaker B:You don't need to build it so somehow we need to take this into account in our policy making, which is very difficult.
Speaker A:Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker A:So you also go into the geopolitical influence of major energy companies.
Speaker A:They have a lot of power, we see that.
Speaker A:But as we move towards a more sustainable future, do you think that they will lose that power?
Speaker A:Can they manage to become the key players in building this new energy landscape and kind of stay in power, do you think?
Speaker B:So this is very theoretical because of course, we're looking at the hypothetical world in which we do carry out a sustainable energy transition.
Speaker B:And I think we will, by the way, one way or another.
Speaker B:So either the easy way, which is kind of in an orderly fashion, or then the hard way, which is climate change gets so difficult that a lot of changes need to be made very quickly.
Speaker B:Obviously, I'm hoping for the first option, but in any case.
Speaker B:So in this world where one way or another we're switching to a more sustainable energy system, I could imagine it going either way a little bit.
Speaker B:So if we think about renewables versus fossil fuels, renewable production can be a lot more centralized than oil and gas production.
Speaker B:So in theory, that might spread the power of kind of being the producer with the influence and the control of the resource.
Speaker B:That might get spread out a bit wider than it currently is, just focused on these specific companies.
Speaker B:That might actually be a good thing.
Speaker B:It might make the world a bit more democratic in that sense.
Speaker B:So potentially the international oil companies would lose some of their political power in that world.
Speaker B:But I do think there's still a lot of scope for them to be in an influencing position in the transition, especially if they were to actually kind of drive the rollout of greener technologies and building greener infrastructure.
Speaker B:So if they want to maintain their power, and we do believe that there's some kind of a transition coming, it would be wise to invest in this early, because if you're kind of left behind, then obviously you are going to be less powerful in this new system.
Speaker A:So the geopolitical or that influence is one thing, but the trust from the public, maybe I shouldn't say keep, because maybe they don't have it among a lot of people.
Speaker A:But can they manage to change that perception of how we see them?
Speaker A:Because in today's world, it's very black and white.
Speaker A:Do you see any of the big majors managing to.
Speaker A:To become the heroes?
Speaker A:You see what I mean?
Speaker B:I think I do.
Speaker B:Well, one thing is for some people, they are the heroes.
Speaker B:So a lot of people love oil companies, especially on the other side of the pond.
Speaker B:So just to exit this green bubble for a bit.
Speaker B:So a lot of people think they are the heroes because of the economic benefits they bring.
Speaker B:And so let's talk about energy access.
Speaker B:If they can be heroes in the fight or the kind of attempt to curtail climate change.
Speaker B:That's quite difficult to see already because of the legacy they have in contributing to climate change.
Speaker B:Many of them hiding or making evidence a bit murkier.
Speaker B:So many of them hiding evidence about climate change historically.
Speaker B:So it's quite a dark legacy to overcome.
Speaker B:But again, anyone who eschews greenwashing and engages with the issue of what happens when we ramp down oil and gas and engages with the issue, honestly, I think has the best chance of being taken more seriously also by the greener parts of society.
Speaker B:And that's complicated.
Speaker B:Again, because a lot of people who want to work in green tech, I don't know what the situation is right now, but a lot of people have gone and worked for international oil companies because they have these green investment arms and all that.
Speaker B:So again, things usually aren't actually black and white, even though they seem like it.
Speaker B:So there's good and bad to different systems.
Speaker B:But the overwhelming influence of oil companies in today's world is still against climate action, I would say.
Speaker B:So that would need to change.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And building on that, in any industry, you would have people who are more skeptical of change.
Speaker A:And you have that in oil and gas, of course, professionals who.
Speaker A:And going back to the quote we had at the start there, that when your livelihood depends on it, it's really hard to make that change.
Speaker A:And I really understand that because I've been in that situation myself and I honestly, I tend to say that I'm not sure that I would have left if I hadn't been forced to leave at that time.
Speaker A:Hopefully I would maybe have done it later, but I don't know.
Speaker A:So how do you think that people inside the industry who might be skeptical of the energy transition in general, how can they shift their mindset from seeing this change as a threat to viewing it as an opportunity?
Speaker B:Yeah, interesting question.
Speaker B:Changing people's minds is notoriously difficult.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker B:Well, the first point is to differentiate between people who are climate skeptics and people who are just skeptical of actions or worried about their consequences.
Speaker B:So if someone is an actual climate skeptic, so doesn't believe in the science of climate change, then I don't really have an answer to you.
Speaker B:I've sort of stopped engaging with that personally.
Speaker B:But I think in this kind of post truth world where people really doubt expertise and science and all that.
Speaker B:It's almost not worth it having that discussion here in Europe.
Speaker B:I'd say almost no one is a climate skeptic in that sense, so it's not such an important distinction.
Speaker B:So here someone who's skeptical about the transition might be more skeptical about what needs to be done, or how quickly can you make the changes, or what should be the role of the oil companies.
Speaker B:One of my papers was actually very much on this point.
Speaker B:So on those interviews with oil industry professionals and how they see their place in climate change and in the energy transition, and there's a lot of different arguments that came out from my discussions with them.
Speaker B:And I would say different arguments merit different responses.
Speaker B:But if I just give some examples, some people would, for example, say that it's not really the responsibility of the oil companies or themselves personally to address climate change in that sense.
Speaker B:Other people might say that it's clearly important, but the immediate business interests or delivering energy access to the world is more important than that.
Speaker B:And then others still might say that yes, it's important to mitigate climate change, but all these kind of activists and scientists and things that they ask for are not realistic in any way.
Speaker B:For the first one, that is not the oil company's responsibility.
Speaker B:That can become a very philosophical discussion very quickly about what is responsibility.
Speaker B:Clearly, I also use fossil fuels in my life, so I'm also responsible to some extent for.
Speaker B:For what is going on.
Speaker B:But I would still say that the companies have more power in this situation.
Speaker B:So therefore there's a bigger responsibility to try to change things.
Speaker B:And you can have a discussion about that.
Speaker B:If the question is more that whether it's right to put climate change above other interests, like financial interests, bringing jobs to different countries, bringing energy to the developing world, then that's a very different question there.
Speaker B:I would actually argue and discuss about the likely impact of climate change on the economy, on people in vulnerable positions around the world, and how not engaging with climate change is a much bigger risk for all those things than taking climate actions now.
Speaker B:So there's all these different arguments.
Speaker B:You can have it.
Speaker B:And then if the discussion is then about, okay, what are the right climate actions to take, is it too quick, all that?
Speaker B:That's probably the easiest because then at least you agree that things need to be done and even oil companies can be part of the discussion.
Speaker B:So then it's just a question of what types of climate action to take and all that.
Speaker B:I would normally say that doing anything now is better than delaying.
Speaker B:So even if it's slower than you think, or even if it's slightly the wrong technology, it's still better to implement now.
Speaker B:But, but that's still that kind of skepticism I'm not as worried about because then you're already kind of on the same side of the debate in some way.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I, in my, in my idealistic world or vision, I see that the individuals inside, inside the industry will have, will get the chance to see themselves as somebody who are really important pieces of solving this complex issue and that they get the chance to do that.
Speaker A:Oh, we have, we have a purpose, we're important here.
Speaker A:I think that is so.
Speaker A:It's so crucial and if they can see that we are so important pieces and we have the skills that we have and the like, the big organizations with, they have everything in place and so.
Speaker A:But how to get there, that is kind of the big question.
Speaker B:Yeah, that is the question.
Speaker B:I think it comes again.
Speaker B:A system change needs to come from many different directions at once.
Speaker B:So hopefully we'll have more and more people working in the industry really waking up to the climate change and what their own role could be and how they could actually be a force for good in this sense and then also the external pressure.
Speaker B:So I think it's good that we have different types of activism on different levels.
Speaker B:We have people in different positions in society speaking out about sustainability.
Speaker B:Hopefully we have more and more meaningful political action.
Speaker B:Although obviously that kind of comes in waves.
Speaker B:But yeah, system change requires change in all aspects of the system, so everyone can be a part of it somehow.
Speaker B:And like I mentioned before, I think what's helpful is to find like minded people.
Speaker B:So especially if you are in a situation, for example, working for an oil company and you want to do something but you don't know what, and you feel kind of alone finding anyone else in the organization or then outside of it who you can talk to and try to work together, that's so much easier than just being alone with your thoughts.
Speaker B:And you probably find that a lot of people agree with you if you start talking to them one on one.
Speaker B:So not kind of online and engaging in these weird debates online, but just speaking with people around you in your communities.
Speaker B:So that's my potentially idealistic view of how change happens.
Speaker B:So people engaging with the other people around them, trying to do something good and something bigger than what just one person is capable of.
Speaker A:True, so true.
Speaker A:So before we finish up, what encouraging words would you share with oil and gas professionals who are excited to get involved in renewable energy or climate and climate solution.
Speaker A:And I think you touched on it now actually.
Speaker A:But how can they jump in and really make a difference in this transformation?
Speaker B:There's just so much to do.
Speaker B:There's an endless amount of ways to make a difference.
Speaker B:So obviously if you can make it your job, that's, that's good.
Speaker B:So yeah, changing careers or if you want to try to make a change within the organization, then as I said, finding like minded individuals to work with is probably the easiest way.
Speaker B:Trying to be a sort of internal activist and there's also other ways.
Speaker B:So I think talking to people openly about the issue, just keeping it on the agenda is so powerful because there are so many things nowadays that people get kind of lost in and our attention is torn in all kinds of different ways.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So if you can have this sense of almost like a mission in your life or one of your life's mission or one of the missions that you want to contribute your life to, I'm sure the opportunities will arise.
Speaker B:But it's just a question of being honest and being direct about what you want to work towards.
Speaker B:So perhaps it is this low carbon world or trying to meet the goals of Paris agreement and the opportunities will come.
Speaker B:So just trying to stay active and in some ways hopeful as well.
Speaker A:I have a final question for you actually that came to me now because you mentioned at the start there that now you're in this more environmental bubble, but you have also kind of peaked inside the oil and gas industry bubble.
Speaker A:So how do you see the potential of building bridges between these bubbles and more communication?
Speaker A:Because that is something that I've seen going from that world to another world that there's very little communication and the environmental people don't go to the conferences with oil and gas people and vice versa.
Speaker A:So we're kind of talking in, in echo chambers.
Speaker A:So how do you see the potential to change that?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm going to be honest, I don't really want to go to an oil and gas conference because I just think, because it is hard, right, to see how completely different people's perceptions are of what is important.
Speaker B:Again, not everyone, but just the discourse of that space.
Speaker B:So I have attended different, more oil and gas professional events in the past and it's true that's so striking.
Speaker B:They often don't mention climate change at all.
Speaker B:And then when I go to the green events and kind of, let's say my bubble events, it's completely different.
Speaker B:So people might not even understand that there's these people out there in very powerful positions who just don't think about climate change at all in their daily lives.
Speaker B:So a huge sympathy to any green activist who doesn't want to go to oil and gas conference, because I don't.
Speaker B:And I also understand if the oil and gas people don't want to come to environmentalist events.
Speaker B:That said, I think it is important to try to engage with people who disagree with you.
Speaker B:So I think that's one of the deep insights I got from myself from doing my PhD research, that you shouldn't just speak to the people who agree with you, and you also don't have to agree on everything to find common ground and common goals and work towards them.
Speaker B:So even if I disagree a little, like many on.
Speaker B:Even if I disagree on many issues with someone who works in an oil company, if we both agree that, okay, something needs to be done for pushing for more offshore wind, for example, then we can work on that thing together and it's more likely to happen and then we can just agree to disagree on the rest.
Speaker B:So I think it's very important to engage with people like that.
Speaker B:And I think the most powerful thing is people actually discussing face to face, either online or in person.
Speaker B:So if you get into these kind of, again, online arguments, you don't really know who's a troll, what's a bot, like who's real, who's not.
Speaker B:You also don't really want to necessarily take on the kind of PR machinery of a huge company.
Speaker B:So in an online media landscape, of course, oil companies have more power than individual activists in controlling the narrative.
Speaker B:They can put more resources towards it, more lobbyists, all that.
Speaker B:So there is a power differential which is real and which we should be aware of when we talk about oil companies and then ordinary citizens or small organizations trying to take them on.
Speaker B:But when you're on the level of just people, so trying to find the people that you can communicate with that are somehow on the other side of the divide, but who you can share some common ground with, I think that's very valuable and we need to be open to that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I will share with you one experience I had because this is, and this is the I.
Speaker A:I have the subtitle for the season is Building Bridges and Bursting Bubbles in the Energy Transition.
Speaker A:And from my oil and gas career days, I used to go to this conference every year, the European association for Geoscientists and Engineers.
Speaker A:And they had their conference in Oslo this June, last June.
Speaker A:And I went there because I, after spending seven years or so in the.
Speaker A:That Other bubble, the environmental bubble.
Speaker A:I just went back to look at their webpage and saw that wow there.
Speaker A:It's actually quite a lot on the agenda about climate change or renewals.
Speaker A:So when I went to the conference, they had this separate corner called the Energy Transition Theater.
Speaker A:It was still way too small from my opinion, but it was there.
Speaker A:And it's interesting to hear their perspective and how they try now to communicate what they're doing that is actually good.
Speaker A:So I think it's a mission.
Speaker A:I have to get more people to attend each other's events and conferences because when we don't see it, we don't have the same level to discuss either.
Speaker A:And as you say, finding somebody inside that other bubble who shares some of your views, maybe not, probably not all, but some.
Speaker A:That is really helpful.
Speaker B:Yes, I agree.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:And again, I think there's a big difference between individuals working for companies and then the companies and the companies kind of public.
Speaker B:Public messaging and all that.
Speaker B:So then the individuals have much more nuanced views, but then the companies often put out a very blanket response to things.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker B:And those two things are different.
Speaker A:Yes, they are.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So true.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker A:Is there something that I haven't asked you that you would like to add related to the topic?
Speaker B:I think we had quite a thorough discussion.
Speaker B:So I'll just reiterate that this is a very complicated issue.
Speaker B:The fact is that the international oil and gas companies are not doing enough to mitigate climate change.
Speaker B:So I think as nice as I want to be, that is the truth.
Speaker B:But that doesn't mean that there isn't potential for change and that there aren't good individuals working in those companies who can drive even more change.
Speaker B:So as difficult it is, we need to keep this complexity in mind when we're trying to solve this climate change issue.
Speaker B:So, yes, things are true.
Speaker B:There are things that are true that need to change, that need to happen.
Speaker B:But people are still complex and systems are complex, and systems change requires the ability to engage with that complexity.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the willingness to change.
Speaker B:Yes, yes, of course.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And one more thing I wanted to say, actually, because you kept asking, how would you change the mind of someone who doesn't want to engage with the transition?
Speaker B:So unfortunately, no one takes well to someone coming to them and saying, hey, I'm going to change your mind about this.
Speaker B:So I'm sure you know this, but it's very important to have this approach of being willing to listen to people whose views you don't agree with, because it's the only way to then also get them to listen to you.
Speaker A:True.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for taking the time and best of luck with your current role and all the work that you do and the work that you still do in London and I will follow it with great interest.
Speaker B:Thank you very much.
Speaker A:So that's it for today.
Speaker A:I highly recommend checking out Krista's profile at the Imperial College London where you can find link to her thesis and other publications.
Speaker A:They are all so interesting.
Speaker A:I will also share her LinkedIn profile if you're curious about other parts of her work.
Speaker A:Thanks for listening today.
Speaker A:Take care and I will be back soon.
