Episode 104
Mining Meets Sustainability: Donna Kitsos on Innovation and Impact
What comes to mind when you hear mining? Pollution? Destruction? Now add the word sustainable — does it feel contradictory?
In this episode, I speak with Donna Kitsos, a Singapore-based expert in global markets, energy, and innovation, about what sustainable mining actually means. With a background in coal trading and a career now focused on climate tech and circular solutions, Donna shares how mining is evolving — and why it’s more important than ever to understand that shift.
🔑 Key Topics
- What “sustainable mining” really means
- How innovation is reshaping extraction and supply chains
- The role of AI, biomining, recycling, and circular systems
- Why collaboration and transparency are key to progress
👤 About Donna Kitsos
Donna has 20+ years in financial/physical commodities, venture, and energy innovation. Today, she works with early-stage technologies that transform mining and sustainability from the ground up.
Learn more: prospectinnovation.com
World Economic Forum’s UpLink Mining Challenge
Donna on LinkedIn
Want to be a guest on Stories for the future: Beyond the Bubble? Send Veslemoy Klavenes-Berge a message on PodMatch.
You can always find more information about the podcast and my work on storiesforthefuture.com or vklavenes.substack.com
Transcript
What are your immediate thoughts when I say the word mining?
Speaker A:Is it pollution?
Speaker A:Environmental damage?
Speaker A:Vast dusty excavation sites?
Speaker A:And if I add the word sustainability, as in sustainable mining, does it feel like a contradiction?
Speaker A:That's exactly what we'll explore in today's episode.
Speaker A:And I can assure you there is so much more to this topic than you might think.
Speaker A:My guest is Dona Kitsos, an experienced and deeply insightful voice in the world of energy, innovation and sustainability.
Speaker A:Based in Singapore, Donna has spent over two decades working at the intersection of global markets, venture and climate focused technologies.
Speaker A:With a background in finance and a career that spans coal trading to investing in technologies designed to replace coal, she's someone who sees complexity not as a barrier, but as an invitation to think differently.
Speaker A:In this conversation, we explore what mining really is and what it isn't, and how innovation, circular systems and cross sector collaboration are reshaping a widely misunderstood innovation industry.
Speaker A:And before we get started, I just have to thank Holly Smith, a previous guest who introduced me to Donna.
Speaker A:And this is what I absolutely love about podcasting.
Speaker A:One connection leads to another and it just keeps going.
Speaker A:So thank you so much, Holly, for this introduction.
Speaker A:And now I hope you enjoy my conversation with Donna Kitzos.
Speaker A:Welcome, Donna, all the way from Singapore.
Speaker B:Well, thanks for having me.
Speaker A:It's a great opportunity to talk about this topic and I think.
Speaker A:And thank you so much to Holly, who's also been on my podcast, connecting us and thinking that your knowledge and your experience would be interesting for this podcast.
Speaker A:And it definitely is.
Speaker A:So you have this really fascinating career journey from trading coal to investing in technologies that might actually replace coal.
Speaker A:So was there a light bulb moment or was it more like this slow change over the years?
Speaker A:So maybe you can just take us through how that all connects, where you're coming from and where you are now.
Speaker B:No, absolutely.
Speaker B:And probably maybe backtracking on that side.
Speaker B:My background, I grew up in Houston, so oil and gas was on my back door.
Speaker B:And I'm a finance major and I have always kind of taken the.
Speaker B:The idea of taking the.
Speaker B:The path less traveled.
Speaker B:While my friends in the finance industry went into banking and consulting, I'm always questioning different, you know, different areas.
Speaker B:And I found the world of the natural gas and oil industry and realize how complex things are.
Speaker B:Our systems, our everyday life is based on all these integrated interdependent systems.
Speaker B:This was my catch into everything and this is where I started.
Speaker B:But to understand it, not coming from engineering, is actually diving into it and understanding how things operate.
Speaker B:Because a lot of times we hear about our Systems like our computer right now, you know, it's easy to put on our laptop.
Speaker B:But where, where is everything coming from?
Speaker B:I like to, I like to joke with my children sometimes where, where does, where does milk come from?
Speaker B:Now?
Speaker B:It doesn't come from just a grocery store.
Speaker B:There's so many layers that are complex behind it.
Speaker B:So for me to understand how the energy industry works is really actually learning how to, how everything operates.
Speaker B:So that kind of where I got into natural gas and then moved into the, the power industry, now transitioning into coal.
Speaker B:I moved over to Europe from the US and so in that I was working for an energy provider, a Dutch German energy provider.
Speaker B:And that was kind of my inflection point saying sorry, go back to your question.
Speaker B:So in terms of the coal side of things, it was, you know, sustainability has always been at my core of my work.
Speaker B:And when you, I guess like when you put those two together, coal and then sustainability, it's very much like how does that really fit?
Speaker B:Now working for an energy provider we actually, sustainability was always at our core.
Speaker B:We were always looking at how to reduce our footprint, how to make things more efficient, how less invasive to the environment, how to do things more economically viable for the energy provider.
Speaker B:So we were always looking at different solution, alternative materials for our power plants.
Speaker B:So this was very much part of, I would, I would say innovation and sustainability before it became just, you know, what it, now everyone's talking about.
Speaker B:It was before, you know, this was actually part of our life.
Speaker B:So I think that you know, when you talk about finance industries, when you talk about, you know, the good, the bad, it's actually, it's, it's about like mindedness and about bridging those gaps and understanding the core of what you're doing.
Speaker B:And, and so that I don't look at that, you know, what, what I'm doing now in terms of innovation and looking at energy, you know, and sustainable mining in this sense is replacing coal.
Speaker B:We need many solutions.
Speaker B:We need, you know, I don't believe there's, you put all eggs in one basket.
Speaker B:This is kind of where we are in this world, in this global world that we're all connected is that we need many solutions.
Speaker B: ambitions that we've set for: Speaker B:It's about how do we actually change our systems.
Speaker B:And that comes down to the minerals, I mean the materials that we need for our adaptation of our world, of our living systems and for resilience and mitigation moving forward actually comes down to the enablers that are providing these solutions, these renewable energy, these digital, these infrastructure type.
Speaker B:It comes down to mining and there's a coin term, they say if it's not farmed, it's mined.
Speaker B:So everything comes, everything comes from the ground.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so for that this is where mining is and I guess in the scale of things, you know, this is kind of where I don't look at that.
Speaker B:I'm, you know, I've gone from cold to, you know, looking at innovation, looking at solutions.
Speaker B:This has always been the core of what energy, our energy systems are the basis of.
Speaker B:It's a complex full of many, many nuances embedded into it.
Speaker B:And so our supply chains, there's, you know, it's just not just digging a hole in the ground.
Speaker B:And I think that's where narratives and the awareness of, of our world and our connection to the environment and to our nature is very important these days because you know, we can easily just buy an EV right now.
Speaker B:But to understand what goes into those EVs, electric vehicles, it's complex.
Speaker B:I mean I was trying with my, with my, with my 6 year old son who's obsessed with getting an iPhone, which is an absolutely no anyway and we just, you know, I said do you understand how an iPhone is made?
Speaker B:And so we did a little research and I believe it was, you know, 46 different minerals.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I bet men most people don't think about this.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:So that's, yeah, you know, that's, I look at it as just a progression of what, what I've always done in the energy and commodities world is the innovation side of things and mining is another part of our supply chains.
Speaker B:And actually mining touch is not just exploration.
Speaker B:There's so many different, many different areas within mining.
Speaker A:So this last leg then taking you to where you are today in Singapore and working on, among other things, sustainable mining.
Speaker A:How did that happen?
Speaker B:Well, that's very, that's a very good question.
Speaker B:Thanks for that.
Speaker B:Yeah, especially in Singapore where it's a beautiful place, it's very clean, the environment, you know, the, the government and, and actually Asia in general is putting so much money into climate initiatives, into carbon production, you know, and there's so many different.
Speaker B:But when you bring mining in, you don't see anything here.
Speaker B:You don't, you don't see any of these natural resources that are being extracted, being processed yet.
Speaker B:Indonesia is right around the corner and natural resources.
Speaker B:So why Singapore?
Speaker B:It's an amazing place to be at.
Speaker B:And given that there's a lot of natural resources in Asia and our systems are connected is.
Speaker B:It's a good global hub.
Speaker B:I call it like the Switzerland of Asia.
Speaker B:It's a right, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's a great place for financial, for financial and organizations to be here, companies to be here.
Speaker B:So why mining here?
Speaker B:You've got Australia right around the corner.
Speaker B:Right around the corner, you know, four or five hours away in Australia.
Speaker B:So it's a great, it's a great point.
Speaker B:Point to bridge the opportunities within Asia as well as the rest of the world.
Speaker B:And given that Asia, the demand moving forward, it's just amazing.
Speaker B:The opportunities for Asia moving forward.
Speaker B:It's full of, you know, embedded with natural resources, yet is growing.
Speaker B:I think the GDP growth is 6 to 7, maybe it's 7 to 8.
Speaker B:So it's 7 to 8, 6 to 7, whatever the number may be, growth opportunity.
Speaker B:And what Asia positions itself in terms of the opportunity is that it can look, it can look at elsewhere of, you know, more developed economies, more developed nations and learn from those.
Speaker B:We don't have to reinvent the wheel.
Speaker B:You can look and see what's, what's worked, what's not and build on that and build on those opportunities.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So this is, you know, it's been a great, you know, great experience being based here, but also connecting with the rest of the world like yourself over, over this column.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's, it's so convenient these days.
Speaker A:It's like distance isn't a problem.
Speaker A:But it's really interesting how.
Speaker A:And I will get back to that because I'm interested in how being in Asia and in Singapore maybe also changes your perspectives on different things.
Speaker A:Like you see, see the world from a different angle perhaps.
Speaker A:But before we go there, you kind of mentioned it when you talked about coal and sustainability because that's like a combination that most people think is like.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:And mining also like mining often makes people think about damage to the environment, you know, but there's a lot more to that story.
Speaker A:Story.
Speaker A:Can you explain why.
Speaker A:And you have mentioned it with the iPhone.
Speaker A:But why is mining still so necessary in today's world?
Speaker B:Well, when people hear mining, they picture a pit or tunnel.
Speaker B:And yes, you watch the Minecraft movie.
Speaker B:It's a, you know, A shovel in that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Money.
Speaker B:Beyond that, it's everything before and after a rock is pulled, it's the beginning of a supply chain and it can be this global, deeply connected system that actually can be regenerative.
Speaker B:So this is where the sustainability part comes in play because it's not just digging a hole and, and grabbing a rock and then throwing away everything.
Speaker B:There's many different ways that mining comes into play.
Speaker B:But it's deeply, deeply embedded with complexity.
Speaker B:You have to extract.
Speaker B:You have to first actually if you want to break it down to a mine nowadays takes about 3, 16 to 18 years to government regulations expiration.
Speaker B:But you have, you have the crushing, the grinding, the concentrate, the separating, the refining, you know, end of use.
Speaker B:So there's, you know, there's so many different steps within mining.
Speaker B:So this is kind of where, where I see that a lot of times the, the perception of what mining is, is so much bigger than what we see in a book or what we see.
Speaker B:You know, that's portrayed and it goes down to the narrative.
Speaker B:You know, it's an industry that's embedded with so much complexity and, and some, and some bad baggage.
Speaker B:You know, it's been, you know there's at the end of the mind, you know, when you, when you have a process there's, there's a part of it.
Speaker B:The waste, the tailings.
Speaker B:The tailings is actually stored and it's waste, it's sludge and it's dangerous to societies.
Speaker B:And in the past there's been some accidents and so this is, you know, with these kind of, you know, exploration type of industries the perception, you know, becomes you know, one life is too many for something.
Speaker B:Given the complexities and the, and the challenges within this industry.
Speaker B:We're so bad at the narrative.
Speaker B:I mean even now explain it.
Speaker B:We are just, you know, it's really hard and.
Speaker B:But yet, you know it's the first to point a finger is the mining companies actually it needs everyone.
Speaker B:This is where collaboration really and as the public private sector now and the partnerships is so important in this stage of life.
Speaker B:Remove all the geopolitical noise going on but the trust and the alliances and that's know that's so integral to actually for you know, decarbonization for to make the systems, you know, be efficient, be using our resources wisely, just not endlessly.
Speaker B:I guess that's more the point.
Speaker B:We, we need to design our systems that don't, that just don't extract value but also regenerate.
Speaker B:So that's making decisions with both long term Impact but short term realities as well.
Speaker B:I think that's very much so.
Speaker B:So mining is reducing the waste and emissions, minimizing harm to communities and ecosystems, but redefining on how we mine, how our materials are sourced, processed, reused and being transparent.
Speaker B:Because I read actually trying to break down how a pencil was made.
Speaker B:The complexity of actually just making a pencil, it's not.
Speaker B:There's so many different processes and to find the, to actually to account and the traceability, let alone that the whole footprint and the value chain that's involved is, you know, it's just complex.
Speaker B:But we, you know, with the mining it's about responsibility and balance and the continuity.
Speaker B:So I think this is kind of the messaging that we have to bring forward and realizing that it's not just the mining companies, that it's actually the industrials, it's people, you know, know actually with us ourselves it's the conscious decisions of recycling.
Speaker B:You know, recycling very much big part of our, you know, of, of mining.
Speaker B:And that goes down to.
Speaker B:Even the way.
Speaker B:So a lot of the technologies now are looking at how secondary resources.
Speaker B:So it's, we had a, we had a chat, we had a program that was actually looking at how we could mine with waste.
Speaker B:So it's actually taking like the tailings and actually extract, you know, cleaning up the water but also taking the minerals out of it rather than just taking and bringing that water back.
Speaker B:So there is no, there's no danger to the communities and yet creating value because you're actually extracting the minerals.
Speaker B:So I think like one of them is like rare earths, right?
Speaker B:There's not.
Speaker A:Yeah, I was going to ask about that.
Speaker A:Yes, we hear so much about the rare earth minerals and I'm not going.
Speaker B:To even try to say these minerals because if you can say them, you know, it's crazy.
Speaker B:You know, like.
Speaker B:But these rare earth minerals, it's not like there's a rare earth mine just right there.
Speaker B:You know when you actually extract an ore it's embedded with other minerals.
Speaker B:So this is where mining is, is, is these innovations are coming into play because rare earths, there's lots of them but you only need a little bit.
Speaker B:But to get those rare earth, it's very complex but we need those.
Speaker B:We need it for, we need it for the healthcare industry, we need it for EVs, the magnets, we need it for defense.
Speaker B:And with it right now it's not about just extracting, it's the processing.
Speaker B:And right, and right now a lot of the processing is concentrated in one big area and due to the geopolitical complications right now or the I guess the challenges right now, you know, this is really having other countries, countries or places rethink how our value chains are, are integrated.
Speaker B:And so this is where innovation comes into play of how we do mine differently.
Speaker B:And so this is, yeah, rare earths is a very, you know, it's a, it's a large part of our foundation of a lot of our products.
Speaker B:In terms of even the earbuds that you're wearing right now, right.
Speaker B:You, you can't just change that, you can't just change the, the magnet to, you know, it'll be less, you know, without using the rare earths at this stage.
Speaker B:Now look, I hope that one day that's also another part of mining is actually finding alternative materials rather than copyright specific, you know, and that's hopefully that will change.
Speaker B:You know, I don't believe that it's competition.
Speaker B:We need many different solutions and that, and that comes down to you know, rare earths, but also that they're practical and they make sense.
Speaker B:Because if you look at mining right now when you're, when we're finding like copper, right?
Speaker B:Copper right now like the amount that is extracted versus what we need right now is actually low.
Speaker B:But the actually the ore quality is that we're at.
Speaker B:The new reserves that we're coming that were, that are being extracted are actually low.
Speaker B:And so with that the processing has to be rethought as well because you can't actually process the right amount.
Speaker B:You'll have to actually extract a lot more rocks on the ground or whatever the method may be to actually get the high concentration that you do need.
Speaker B:So these are different complexities that are also embedded into this.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So when you're, because you work your company Prospect Innovation and you see a lot of new mining technology and you have this really interesting collaboration with the World Economic Forum and their platform called Uplink.
Speaker A:And to the listeners, Uplink is a digital platform to source innovative solutions for the world's most pressing problem.
Speaker A:It says on their website.
Speaker A:So do you have like examples of how new innovation really can change this the mining industry and the parts of it which is needs to be changed?
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And with Prospect we invest in early stage technology.
Speaker B:So it's usually it's proof of concept but yet has not piloted.
Speaker B:So with some of these solutions there they're quite complex, they're quite there.
Speaker B:There's a lot of timeline to actually get them to scale.
Speaker B:And so this is where you know, the myth we find that there's you get a lot of the non diluted capital from governments or, or whatnot in terms of getting them off the ground or from academic, but then missing middle of trying to get them to be able to get to the scale to get commercialized.
Speaker B:Yes is a huge bottleneck in this.
Speaker B:A lot of the solutions are there and oftentimes it's not the best solution that's made, you know, made it to the end.
Speaker B:It's actually being able to having the right partners and having that right support.
Speaker B:So that's kind of where, that's where we come into play is actually tapping into the ecosystem because we need not just one voice, we need multiple stakeholders involved and that's across the value chain.
Speaker B:Support can come in many different forms.
Speaker B:Obviously financial capital is very important, but that's not everything.
Speaker B:And the cost of some of these innovations are quite expensive.
Speaker B:The capex and the OPEX and the time to scale is, you know, is quite a large commitment.
Speaker B:So you actually need a lot of more catalytic capital to kind of be able to work with them to get them to the point.
Speaker B:So some of these technologies take many years and a lot of different testing and scaling.
Speaker B:But also working with beyond just a mining company, a lot of it's industrial.
Speaker B:So you're seeing a lot of the automobile industry actually tapping in across the supply chain.
Speaker B:So not only just providing that Tesla to you or providing that whatever the electric vehicle be, they're actually now working within the supply chain too in the processing to into the actual, the, the minerals that are needed for their technologies.
Speaker B:So and that's a lot with you know, having the right partnerships, having the right offtake agreements and so actually working with manufacturers and exploration companies, a lot of the technologies now are much, much more, I would say, I guess called convergence.
Speaker B:So actually taking the blended of you know, AI with synthetic biology and so that could be a whole nother session as well.
Speaker B:Bringing the AI for good and involved AI is a big part of not only just mining, but a lot of the processes.
Speaker B:But on the other side you have a lot of the data centers and that's also now requiring.
Speaker A:That's a big topic as well.
Speaker B:Yeah, you go to the rabbit hole.
Speaker B:Like there's so many, there's so many challenges but that also brings that there's so many different opportunities.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So do you have any like concrete examples of solutions?
Speaker A:You might, and you mentioned the barriers but that maybe are closer to being realized.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:So I guess to your listeners that mining without getting too complicated into some of the solutions.
Speaker B:So one of the solutions that was part of our first cohort, I'd say that it's much more relatable because it's more biology enabled mineral recovery.
Speaker B:So like so say in right next to a nickel mine there's all this land but you actually can't, you can't farm it because it's so rich in minerals that it's actually not able to be used to for communities.
Speaker B:So what they've done is they've hyper accumulated these plants and they're able to refine these plants that they can plant into the ground next to the mines or the land that's inhabitable and actually extract the nickel.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So actually it's not an, it's a different way to mine.
Speaker B:Yeah, so these are the technologies that I find actually very, very interesting because it's not the straight off the shelf type of solution is looking at something that how can we mine differently?
Speaker B:So this is one of the solutions I would say is that it's actually extracting the mineral so it's regenerating the land and also providing the minerals and it's less energy intensive.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:There's you know, another one is actually, you know, the convergence of what I was mentioning about AI and synthetic biology.
Speaker B:They're engineering microbes.
Speaker B:So think of it like your gut, you know, when you take those probiotics and you know it's cleaning up your gut.
Speaker B:So they're actually now engineering these microbes and they can see selectively absorb minerals from low or quality.
Speaker B:So they can actually like whether it be nickel or copper and from low grade ores or tailings.
Speaker B:And so this is another way and that's actually, and the AI component is actually getting the microbes a bit smarter.
Speaker B:So to actually be able to tailor, you know, different scenarios.
Speaker B:So this is another one, another another solution I would say is that is looking at precision mining.
Speaker B:So you know, instead of just blasting, actually doing, doing in situ mining.
Speaker B:So these different type of processing of actually taking out, extracting the minerals.
Speaker B:If you look at, you know, dle so lithium can, lithium is another one where you could either come from rocks or actually direct lithium extraction which is very much like the oil and gas industry.
Speaker B:So you're seeing a lot of the oil and gas maters that have been involved in that actually now exploring the D because it's a different way to extract it which is very similar to that, to that industry.
Speaker B:So actually some of the solutions are already out there.
Speaker B:It's you know, the product market fit isn't there or that it needs to be refined to the local climate.
Speaker B:And when I say like, so I think the localized, you know, some of these localized technologies, you know, have to be.
Speaker B:Are very different depending on where the mine is or where the different, you know, location is.
Speaker B:So a lot of the solutions now are looking at how to.
Speaker B:Instead of having a smelter, you know, smelters for most people would know that they're, they're energy intensive, they're highly polluting.
Speaker B:So different ways to actually process the minerals.
Speaker B:Different solutions of.
Speaker B:Through electric, electric, you know, electro winning and you know, different, different types of methods to, to refine these minerals.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:So it's a lot of kind of out of the box way of thinking because when you first think about okay, how can we make this more sustainable, you think about like the way you normally think about mining and how can we do that in a different way now?
Speaker B:And you know there's not.
Speaker B:And also it's, it's not a one size fits all.
Speaker B:There's different, different metals, different ore types, different environments and economic needs.
Speaker B:So like it's just not a straight journey from discovery to end use.
Speaker B:There's so many different parts embedded to it.
Speaker B:And also the other part of it is this circular loop.
Speaker B:So what I can, what one industry or one sector make may consider waste can be a resource for another.
Speaker B:So this is actually being able to look at our, look at different ways to actually integrate all those, all those different systems together.
Speaker B:And so when you talk about mining, you know what I think one of the challenges has always been it's been a very siloed approach in moving forward.
Speaker B:And this is kind of where we are at this moment, where actually mining is across all verticals.
Speaker B:You look at industry, you look at aviation, you look at healthcare, it touches so many water.
Speaker B:You know there's.
Speaker B:So if you give me any, I mean I always challenge someone, give me something that money hasn't touched.
Speaker A:Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And recycling as well.
Speaker B:You know, recycling, that's also another one, you know, the separating and the mineral with especially in terms of like the first solar panels that are now having to be replaced or you know, batteries coming from, from cars or from phones or whatnot.
Speaker B:How do we actually reuse the materials that were actually made?
Speaker B:So that's very much part of mining.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's a big, big, big area a lot.
Speaker A:And you said it a lot of challenges.
Speaker A:But that also makes a lot of opportunities and I think that's, that's really exciting.
Speaker A:I'm wondering about one thing, because I think you touched on it the last time we spoke.
Speaker A:Are there, are you seeing a lot of female founders in this space?
Speaker A:How is that, how is the gender balance among the founders?
Speaker B:Well, it's, you know, and I think we did, yeah, we did talk about the last time in, in, in mining and I guess in the energy field, you know, when I first started in, in the energy industry, I was one of the only females and you know, and it was, it's a very engineering field in general.
Speaker B:And you know, especially in the innovation space, I think the statistics are that 2% of women, women founders are able to, you know, out of all the, all the funds that come out of the venture side of things, 2% go to women.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Yet women will deliver.
Speaker A:I mean, exactly.
Speaker A:I heard the same.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And very much about empowering women and having a voice and, and no, and that's just collaborations.
Speaker B:For the uplink challenge we had or the, the World Economic Forum program, the first sustainable mining challenge, we had 30% women founders, which is 33% I believe, which is higher than they've had across their other initiatives.
Speaker B:And when I say female founders, like it wasn't even the second, you know, it wasn't their CTO or you know, a scientist.
Speaker B:This was actually female led.
Speaker B:So this, that's, that's incredible.
Speaker B:It's not enough.
Speaker B:But, you know, it's very much that women are needed across many different areas and including mining.
Speaker B:And there's some amazing, amazing global organizations that are supporting women in all, you know, in mining and, and it's not just on the field.
Speaker B:There's an impact in research and working in automobile industries.
Speaker B:So it's many different forms and so it's about supporting the communities and the ecosystems around that.
Speaker A:That's good to hear.
Speaker A:So I'm wondering, going back to that, what I touched on at the beginning, you being in Singapore now and coming from Houston and also living in.
Speaker A:I'm working in Europe.
Speaker A:How has your like Singapore experience shaped the way that you think about innovation and sustainability?
Speaker A:Perhaps different.
Speaker A:You see like a difference from where you come from before.
Speaker B:Yes, because I've walked into a room and said, hi, I'm Donna, I'm in mining and metals.
Speaker B:And then like I've lost the audience.
Speaker B:So I've had to kind of in the past I've, you know, talked about climate first.
Speaker B:So having that narrative differently based on where I am in location, given the recent geopolitical and all the landscape of, and actually the emphasis on critical minerals moving forward and climate adaptation and resilience being very much a focal point.
Speaker B:Minerals have, minerals and mining have become a lot more core into the conversations.
Speaker B:So you know, one of the things I've always said is like sustainability at its core it's about meeting our needs today without making it harder for our, you know, our children, our future generations to meet theirs.
Speaker B:It's not a trade off when we talk about mining, it's about not doing harm for something else that's good.
Speaker B:So it, you know, it is about reducing the waste and emissions and minimizing any harm.
Speaker B:It doesn't mean stop mining.
Speaker B:It's rethinking of how we mine and how we work together.
Speaker B:And that boils down to collaboration and action.
Speaker B:I think at this moment in time, in our inflection point is we can't relate, rely on the government to bail us out.
Speaker B:We actually need to work together across sectors, across geographies to make what we need in mining and just in our whole world, in our whole, you know, real world systems.
Speaker B:And that's kind of where I, when I say sustainability, it's very much a core point of not only just my values of what I want my children to, to look at, to understand what, where, where things come from, where, you know, I don't want to leave them a planet that I've done something to make it difficult for them moving forward.
Speaker B:But I also think it's like thinking about our systems more systematically, systemically that mining touches like everything from climate to geopolitical to the phone in your hand.
Speaker B:It's about how everything is worked together and it's about seeing those connections clearly and making those choices that seem, that keep the system resilient, not, not fragmented, which is sometimes a lot of the bottleneck that is happening in the world.
Speaker A:But do you think that your, your job or the work that you do now is easier to do out of Singapore than it would be in like in the States or in, in Europe for that matter.
Speaker A:I'm just curious, you know, that's a.
Speaker B:That'S a, you know, that's a very good question because I, I think about that quite often because sometimes I mean with, with mining and in energy systems especially that are deeper supply chains.
Speaker B:I also am very conscious on what flights I take, but it's also about the decisions I make as well as a person.
Speaker B:So I'm oftentimes missing out on some of these conferences of really connecting with people and you know, trying to work together.
Speaker B:And it's great that we have these amazing, that zoom and different, you know, that it makes it feels like, you know, but still that tangible of being next to someone sometimes is, you know, often missing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I do think technology nowadays does help bridge that gap.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:There's amazing technologies given, and I'm trying to refrain from talking about, like, some of the areas that don't believe there's climate change and, and, you know, but yet I, yet everyone knows there's climate, you know, we're sitting in places where there's natural disasters and glaciers are melting and, and the biodiversity, you know, is very fragile and, and that's really hard.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But yet there's some amazing innovations that are coming out of the Americas and coming out of Europe.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, you know, but yet our systems, even in this day and age, are so fragmented.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:In many places.
Speaker B:And that's where, that's where I guess my, my frustration is, and I'm sure amongst a lot of others, is we have such an opportunity to make a difference and we have these amazing conversations, but yet it becomes this echo chamber.
Speaker B:Like, we're all talking, but then action doesn't happen.
Speaker B:And that's where we all need to come together.
Speaker B:And that reflects that as an individual, that we all have a voice and that we can't just rely on a mining company to change it.
Speaker B:We can't rely on governments to change things because we actually need to set that example and bring those, bring those partnerships together.
Speaker B:So, and, and even with capital, I think that's probably some area that maybe, you know, another, another podcast is that the amount of capital is needed.
Speaker B:We actually need the private sector to really scale.
Speaker B:And that's a very, that's part of a lot of the conversations now, regardless of where you are in the world, because a lot of the funding is not there anymore and, or the funding is needed in scale to really accelerate the needs that we need in terms of technology, innovation and climate itself.
Speaker B:So our energy systems, if you even take out the climate side of things, just our energy systems, having clean water, having electricity, there's so many places that don't even have that.
Speaker B:And the conversation sometimes, and the awareness is, is missing.
Speaker B:And so I think that's given me a good perspective in terms of my, you know, I've, I've been abroad over half my life now, which is really scary thinking about that.
Speaker B:My children are my children.
Speaker B:You know, they think they're Singaporean, yet they carry an American passport, a New Zealand passport, and, and, but, but they're exposed to so many different cultures and so much.
Speaker B:But they.
Speaker B:The most exciting thing I mean about going back to visit my family this summer is actually taking to a battery recycling plant.
Speaker B:I actually want to take them to a place where they can actually see what, what mommy does, what I'm talking about, you know, even being in the finance industry like working for a bank.
Speaker B:I want, I wanted some of the traders to actually see what a coal pile is.
Speaker B:To see what you know, because when you don't, you don't see it, it's just another number.
Speaker B:But when you see societies that don't have electricity or clean water or what a, what a, you know, what copper looks like, you know, it's very hard to relate to.
Speaker B:So it's creating that awareness.
Speaker B:So yes, I'm excited about taking them to a battery recycling plant.
Speaker A:That's very exciting.
Speaker A:But I think what I'm thinking is that your perspective both like as a bridge builder in a way because you both have this, a global perspective having both like the US perspective Europe and then Asia and then you also have this perspective from different industries and oil and gas, finance, sustainable mining.
Speaker A:And that I think is so valuable because as you said it's so fragmented and it's so siloed often.
Speaker A:So we need the people who has kind of seen it from different angles.
Speaker A:I think that's, that's really valuable.
Speaker B:We can learn so much from the past.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And that's, I mean we don't necessarily always need to, you know, reinvent the wheel, but we also need to learn and we can, we can adapt.
Speaker B:A solution that we have in one area may not work somewhere else.
Speaker B:As I said with like some of the, some of the supply chains, you know, it's very, the processing, the different ways of extraction, you look at some of the technologies, yet they don't have power to get there.
Speaker B:So how are they powering it right now with coal?
Speaker B:So how do you find these modular solutions that actually can with long duration, you know, energy storage systems, batteries that actually could power it in a clean way.
Speaker B:So there's a lot of different ways we can learn from each other.
Speaker B:And actually the conversations I, I think I get the most more energy out of is outside the mining industry sometimes because, because it's actually having that like minded align that alignment with different and shows how connected we are as individuals.
Speaker B:I have systems and that connection and that awareness and that actually opportunity to really bridge what we can build together.
Speaker B:That collective action I think is incredible what we have that opportunity.
Speaker A:So yeah, I'm really curious about this because I come from oil and gas myself.
Speaker A:I have this Geoscientist background know a lot of other geoscientists and I'm also always looking for, okay, so if people move out of oil and gas and like at some point it, it is a sunset industry, is that what we call it?
Speaker A:Like it will, it's a, it's a transition but it will get smaller.
Speaker A:So I'm looking for ways that people can use their skills, skills and knowledge and background in different ways.
Speaker A:And I think that geoscientists for instance, would have a, like a big future in sustainable mining.
Speaker A:So what, what would you say to people who want to be part of this or like learn more about sustainable mining and where can they kind of find their place?
Speaker B:I think everyone has a role, can play a role, whether it's going to be in the narrative in marketing.
Speaker B:You know, actually that's a field that I think is so, so underrepresented and so much needed in terms of changing the perspectives of actually bridging the gap of bringing, you know, bringing different people and different stakeholders involved and reshaping the narrative.
Speaker B:I think that's a very much scientists definitely I believe that that's very much, you know, with a transition is not an end.
Speaker B:It's always our world is changing, our children's will change and there'll be more solutions that will come.
Speaker B:Fusion and you know, there's hydrogen, you know, there's, there's so many different solutions coming out and it's amazing at the time, time to scale and the time involved to really actually make sure that it's, that it's not doing any, any other further damage.
Speaker B:Yes, that's, you know, it's not going to happen overnight and it's not just stopping with something.
Speaker B:So I believe that there's many different organizations out there.
Speaker B:There's lots of, there's for, there's many different groups now.
Speaker B:Sustainable women, women in climate.
Speaker B:Not to, not to dissuade any of your male listeners.
Speaker B:I'm a part of Women and Mining and Resources in Singapore and, and I believe there's 30.
Speaker B:Last year was about 30 something percent, 30% men and the same thing in a carbon group.
Speaker B:And it's those conversations.
Speaker B:So it's always, you know, one of the things I had interns last summer and you know, especially in Singapore where they don't know what mining is and put them on the spot, you know, tell me what mining is.
Speaker B:I've never seen so many people with so many, you know, students with white faces just saying put on the spot.
Speaker B:But challenging, you know, every voice is needed Whether you've been in an industry for 20 years or whether you've been in it for two minutes, we, we need different perspectives and different, different ideas to really surface.
Speaker B:So whether it's through school or through the industry you're in through different, different organizations.
Speaker B:I mean that's what's amazing about our global world.
Speaker B:We're connected in some way or form.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:And as you mentioned, there's so many networks and places that you can find people and it's just when you, I just had this experience myself.
Speaker A:When you start looking, you kind of, oh, where were all these people?
Speaker A:I didn't know they existed.
Speaker A:So it's just when you start to scratch, you find so many groups and interesting places.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And one of the things like.
Speaker B:And Holly's really opened my eyes is impact measurement.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a, I mean she's fantastic sort.
Speaker B:But to understand impact measurement, because when you're talking about early stage technologies, they're, you know, they've got a roadmap that they think may happen.
Speaker B:There's so much different variables and different strategies that are needed to actually evolve.
Speaker B:But so really how to, how to put in some measurements out there to create awareness and, and had that framework and so that's been, you know, a different side of it.
Speaker B:I'm trying to learn just for a better awareness as well.
Speaker B:I'm always learning.
Speaker B:I think that, you know, as in our journey in life.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Things are absolutely.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it, it makes it a lot more exciting as well.
Speaker B:I just think it's about connecting, like connecting the, the dots across the chain.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:To have this huge map and how we can actually, how we have all have in common.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Reducing water and energy and chemical use, cutting costs.
Speaker B:But cost, you know, doesn't have to come as a trade off.
Speaker B:A lot of the conversation, especially in the, I guess in the private sector and public.
Speaker B:Private sector is that the conversation doesn't need to be only for good.
Speaker B:It's profit for good.
Speaker B:That's, you know, and that's, it's okay to make a financial return.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's very much now even with the startups now, you know, to get the funding.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You have to, you have to have these incentives and, and also that.
Speaker B:And how do you entice actually and then how do you entice the private sector involved into it?
Speaker B:So that's also needs to come from the public, from the government and incentives as well.
Speaker B:So there's a lot of different variables that you know, and so I'm always like mapping Out.
Speaker B:You see my room back here, and I have this, like, all these posters actually.
Speaker B:Holly and I is actually.
Speaker B:Okay, so how can we do this?
Speaker B:And, you know, and who am I missing on this side?
Speaker B:I was at a. I was at a mining conference yesterday, and I was like, I have a startup that has this amazing technology.
Speaker B:I have no.
Speaker B:I have no, no financial implication involved in this.
Speaker B:I just think it's an amazing one.
Speaker B:They just need the right voices involved and they need the right support.
Speaker B:So for me, it's very much about the connections and bridging those opportunities.
Speaker B:And so I think that's where everyone has a role to play.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Regardless of, you know, industry or sector.
Speaker B:I think that's very important.
Speaker B:No role.
Speaker B:No role is not, you know, no role is.
Speaker B:Should not be undervalued.
Speaker B:We all are a piece of the puzzle.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:So, speaking of connections, if people now want to learn more about this or connect with you, what's the easiest way to get in touch with you?
Speaker B:I can give you my phone number, but it's always Great.
Speaker B:Or through LinkedIn or through any of the organizations within Singapore.
Speaker B:I'm always learning.
Speaker B:So I'd love to hear any kind of opportunities that.
Speaker B:Whether you're working on as an innovation or different ideas of how to actually integrate more collaboration.
Speaker B:Um, so that's.
Speaker B:Or just really have some food for thought, you know, and what you're seeing in a different industry.
Speaker B:The world is always evolving and there's so much opportunity.
Speaker A:Thank you so much, Donna, for being one of those bridge builders between where we are and where we need to go.
Speaker A:I think this is.
Speaker A:It's such an important topic.
Speaker A:So thank you so much for sharing your journey and the work that you do, and best of luck with everything.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker A:I hope this conversation gave you a fresh lens on a topic that's often overlooked or misunderstood.
Speaker A:What I take with me is the idea that progress doesn't always look like something new.
Speaker A:Sometimes it's about doing something old in a radically better way.
Speaker A:As always, you will find all the interesting connection points and links on listed in the show notes.
Speaker A:And to find out more about this podcast or other work I'm doing, check out storiesforthefuture.com or go to my substack@vklavnaas.substack.com among other things there.
Speaker A:I've got a really interesting future scenario generator that I've created and I would really like you to test it out.
Speaker A:You'll find it on my substack.
Speaker A:Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker A:And until next time, take care.
