Episode 87
Supporting the Supporters: Judith Hartlmaier on Regenerative Work That Pays
If you've ever felt torn between making a difference and making a living, this episode is here to help you reframe that tension - and start building something more sustainable. Both for the planet. And for yourself.
My guest today is Judith Hartlmaier, co-founder of Positive Impactpreneur — a business built on a powerful mission: to support the supporters.
Judith works with solo practitioners, consultancies, and support organizations in the impact sector — helping them blend revenue with regenerative, systems-oriented work. In other words, she helps the helpers design businesses that actually work — for their clients, the world, and their own sanity.
We talk about
- Why pricing your work fairly is part of the impact
- What blended value creation actually means (and why you need it)
- How to create ripple effects in complex systems
- The real reason many well-intentioned changemakers burn out - and what to do instead
- How to show up in a chaotic world and still build something that lasts
Whether you’re an impact-driven solopreneur, a facilitator in transition, or a curious systems-thinker, this episode is packed with insights, clarity, and hope for the regenerative economy we know is possible.
About Judith Hartlmaier:
Judith is a regenerative strategist, systems thinker, and founder of Positive Impactpreneur — a consultancy and accelerator helping service-based changemakers build financially sustainable, systemically impactful businesses. Through programs like the Catalytic Change Accelerator and the Impact–Revenue Alignment Program, she supports solo practitioners and support organizations in designing outcome-driven learning journeys that blend deep impact with solid revenue. With a background spanning consulting, education, the arts, and entrepreneurship, Judith is all about connecting the dots, reframing challenges, and helping leaders thrive in a future-focused, regenerative economy..
As part of celebrating 5 years of Positive Impactpreneur, they are sharing their insights on solving the Impact-Revenue Paradox, the challenge of balancing meaningful work with financial sustainability. The free 5-part masterclass is particularly designed for impact-driven service professionals.
It includes:
✔ Proven frameworks for embedding Impact–Revenue Alignment into your business
✔ A 90-day roadmap to land high-impact, well-paid bespoke projects
✔ Downloadable guides, self-assessments & checklists to apply the insights right away
✔ A few slots for booking a free Impact-Revenue Alignment Audit
🔗 Connect with Judith:
- 🌐 Website: positiveimpactpreneur.com
- 🎓 Free Masterclass: The Impact Revenue Paradox
- 💼 LinkedIn: Judith Hartlmaier
🎧 If you liked this episode, consider subscribing, sharing it with your fellow changemakers - or leaving a review. And as always, come say hi or join the conversation over at Stories for the Future on Substack.
Let’s keep building bridges - and businesses - that are good for more than just the bottom line.
Want to be a guest on Stories for the future: Beyond the Bubble? Send Veslemoy Klavenes-Berge a message on PodMatch.
You can always find more information about the podcast and my work on storiesforthefuture.com
Mentioned in this episode:
Thanks to Creative Space for supporting this episode! Visit getcreativespace.com
Transcript
Hello and welcome back to another episode.
Speaker A:I'm Veslimay and you're listening to Stories for the Future where we break bubbles and build bridges for a better future.
Speaker A:So you want to do some good in the world and also make enough money to not have to just eat toast?
Speaker A:Yes, same here.
Speaker A:And if you ever found yourself wondering how to build a business that that's both impactful and financially sustainable, you should keep listening.
Speaker A:Today I'm joined by Judith Hartelmaier, co founder of Positive impactpreneur, a brilliant mind working on complex system thinking, who's helping solo practitioners and support organizations turn their values into viable regenerative businesses.
Speaker A:We talk about how to build real ripple effects, how to not burn out in the process, and yes, why pricing your work isn't evil even if you're trying to do good and serve people and planet.
Speaker A:So whether you're a purpose driven freelancer, a facilitator, or a future focused consultant, this episode is for you.
Speaker A:Let's dive in.
Speaker A:Welcome, Judit, it's so great to have you with me today.
Speaker B:Thank you so much.
Speaker B:Thanks for having me.
Speaker B:Thanks for inviting me.
Speaker A:I think it's with a global audience and guests from all around the world, it's always great to know where people are geographically.
Speaker A:So where are you based and also your accent.
Speaker A:Where do you come from originally?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, I am based in Europe at the moment, but it probably doesn't say too much in the context of how I work or where I come from.
Speaker B:So I'm based in Germany and my background, so part of my family from Germany but also part lived in the UK and lived in Australia.
Speaker B:Part of my family is there, including my, my stepdaughter.
Speaker B:So Asia Pacific is definitely one area that is really relevant for me and Europe also, since I grew up here, at least in parts.
Speaker B:So bit of a.
Speaker B:Bit of a world citizen probably mixed bag when it comes to my accent.
Speaker B:But yeah, Australia and Germany are two main parts.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think I hear a lot of Australian in that.
Speaker A:I think so, yeah.
Speaker A:So I think before we go more into the details, can you just start by sharing with us in your definition, what is a positive impactpreneur?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:That is such a good question.
Speaker B:And also it's really interesting the reactions that I get to that from people being really curious all the way to.
Speaker B:That's not a real word.
Speaker B:No, that's actually a brand name.
Speaker B:So true.
Speaker B:So it came from that thought of really fusing that entrepreneur aspect with positive impact and thinking about how can we build businesses that Fuse revenue generation with impact and blending that at the core of the business.
Speaker B:And first it came really from an entrepreneurial point of view.
Speaker B:And then since I've always worked in the context of being a support organization or a service firm, we stepped into more of that question in the context of the supportive ecosystem.
Speaker B:So positive impactpreneur, that facilitator, that supporter of sustainability and regenerative transitions, of making positive impact and really creating organizations that at their core bring the two things together very naturally.
Speaker B:You can't really tell one from the other.
Speaker B:But impact and revenue are just one.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:So this is also then the name of your company that you have co founded.
Speaker A:So just can you explain what types of businesses or people are you normally working with?
Speaker A:Yeah, and maybe give an example so we understand really the type.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So as mentioned, we focus on the supportive ecosystem.
Speaker B:The supportive ecosystem really being could be different kinds of support organizations that usually work B2B or also practitioners.
Speaker B:So in that case solo practitioners that particularly work in the field of consulting, facilitation, training, education, learning.
Speaker B:So those organizations also solo practitioners that facilitate other organizations within their transition.
Speaker B:And where we realized when we started also.
Speaker B:So my background really having worked as said in professional services and then having built up my own consultancy work and firm and and training firm, working a lot with higher education.
Speaker B:So I was that.
Speaker B:And then I realized throughout that, throughout many years of working in that field that if we don't have organizations that support that are really stable and anchored into how to facilitate that transition, the transition just goes very slow and we don't have the right expertise, we don't have the facilitation in organizations.
Speaker B:And so some of the research that we did was on ecosystems and supportive ecosystems.
Speaker B:And what does that need from first an entrepreneurial point of view and then more and more for regenerative and sustainability transitions.
Speaker B:And so that became my focus to say, yeah, if we don't have that stable supportive ecosystem, if we don't have organizations that bring expertise into facilitating into kind of midwifing other organizations into a new state of being, it's really difficult to drive that transition or to even catalyze it.
Speaker B:And so therefore we started to support the supporters.
Speaker B:So from solo practitioners to medium sized consultancy firms, for example, all the way to larger universities, all those organizations that are knowledge intensive, expertise based and usually work B2B in that context we're quite agnostic in terms of what's the bubble.
Speaker B:I would say that they, that they're at home at, so could be social innovation.
Speaker B:It could be regeneration, it could be sustainability, it could be common good economy.
Speaker B:As long as it's in the impact space.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're quite agnostic in regards to that.
Speaker B:And international as well.
Speaker A:Yes, yes, all around the world.
Speaker A:So I sense that you have experienced some of the challenges that you are helping other others with.
Speaker A:So can you share a little bit about your own journey and how, how did, what did that look like?
Speaker B:Yes, of course.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Lived experience I would probably call it.
Speaker A:It's often like that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We tend to solve at least part of the problem that we've experienced ourselves.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:For me, I did always have that impact lens or that question, what's the benefit for society or for environment?
Speaker B:For the environment or what's the negative impact of what organizations or people are doing?
Speaker B:For me, more the way that I grew up, I saw this very closely.
Speaker B:My mother working in the social sector, working in the arts, lending things, but also having part of my family, having an entrepreneurial background.
Speaker B:And I guess one thing that I learned pretty quickly was without business, without the aspect of business and the, the vehicle of business, it's just really challenging to bring projects and organizations to life and to sustain them in a healthy way.
Speaker B:And so for me that was yeah, really the way into, into business to set to, to think about and to learn about what does that system, that economic system, but also corporate organizations, what does that look like?
Speaker B:Learn from the inside, if you will.
Speaker B:That's how I started my career.
Speaker B:So I worked for BMW in China and so studied with background in international management and business, Chinese, hence China.
Speaker B:So for me, that international setting, but also going to the markets where I felt this is what we need to understand if we want to understand the future, if you want to be part of shaping that.
Speaker B:And so that was a big, big part.
Speaker B:Working for BMW in strategic HR and then shifting back to Europe because my, my family, my partner, my stepdaughter, they were here.
Speaker B:And so this became just a very long distance.
Speaker B:So then working in professional services for PwC in mainly government, governance, financial risk, bit of sustainability and corporate treasury.
Speaker B:So I had first the people side of things and then the number side of things, first in a corporate perspective from the inside and then from a consulting perspective being part of a lot of projects.
Speaker B:And I think that foundation, it gave me a really strong foundation in the terms of I saw a lot at a very young age, was able to be part of projects.
Speaker B:But also what I realized fairly quickly is that doesn't fit with who I am or what I would want to see in the world and that impact, part of that aspect of what is it good for?
Speaker B:What's the purpose of this?
Speaker B:That I always had growing up was often not answered in that corporate context for me.
Speaker B:So I learned a lot.
Speaker B:But I was feeling less and less, yeah maybe really fitting into that, not being able to bring the talents or the person that I am into that context.
Speaker B:And for me that was the reason to step out and start my own business.
Speaker B:So I guess probably from that point of view something, you know, some of the things that we, that we talked about before starting recording really the context of well being and do we feel like we can bring ourselves to work?
Speaker B:Can we use the talents that we have?
Speaker B:Can we bring that lens into, into that?
Speaker B:So that was the first part of my career and the reason why I started my own business is because I didn't find that impact aspect too much in that context.
Speaker B:And yeah, I was, I was really challenged from, from a, from a well being point of view to, to work in that context and, and feel that I could, yeah, that I could really unfold the potential that I'd have.
Speaker B:That was the first part.
Speaker B: started into my own business: Speaker B:And I guess that was also what is one big foundation in positive impactpreneur now is having experienced that lack of a rock solid foundation, that lack of a stable foundation that generates revenue, that generates impact as a service provider and as a, as a firm in that context.
Speaker B:And that was then one of the bigger part that we started to work on, we call it now blended value creation.
Speaker B:So how can we generate all the way to systems value, systems change aspect, impact aspect and also financial aspect, revenue, commercial aspect if you will.
Speaker B:What does that look like and how can we do that?
Speaker B:But also how can we now we understand what the challenges are?
Speaker B:How can we now support in that context?
Speaker B:Yeah, so that is one part and the other part then really one of the big questions I always ask was well yeah, I mean it's great to work on a couple of project as consultancy or as a training firm, but that's not really going to solve the problem that we have.
Speaker B:So this mismatch between the scope of the problems that we have on this planet and what I was able to contribute to as a service firm I was always thinking about how can we catalyze that?
Speaker B:How can we especially leverage education and learning in a new kind of way that it results in behavior change and an impact?
Speaker B:What does that look like in, in a B2B setting?
Speaker B:And this is what we mainly then support with as well, like this rock solid foundation, especially for the solo practitioners and smaller firms in that context.
Speaker B:And then for those that say we want to amplify what we do, we want to understand how we can create learning and education and services that contribute to systems change.
Speaker B:How can we catalyze.
Speaker B:What could that look like?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, there's so many things popping up in my head now.
Speaker A:But take it back a step.
Speaker A:I'm wondering this, you know this.
Speaker A:It's often the fact that we see doing good in the world as some sort of sacrifice.
Speaker A:And like, like we separate like doing good and make a lot of money.
Speaker A:It doesn't kind of fit.
Speaker A:You have to suffer a bit to be like an impact business.
Speaker A:And this has really annoyed me for years.
Speaker A:So how do you first of all, did you feel that challenge when you moved away from the corporate world and started your own business?
Speaker A:And how do we actually move away from this kind of thinking also for, for the, for the people around us like, like being standing proud in that I'm having a business but I'm also doing good, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, maybe, maybe connecting with that aspect that there's also, there was also quite a bit of sacrifice in the corporate context, but from a different point of view, right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:That there's, there's sacrifice out of different reasons for many people, especially if you work in fast paced consulting environment, but then shifting into that, looking through that impact lens and exploring early, when I, when I did that, exploring also different concepts and different.
Speaker B:Yeah, different.
Speaker B:Different scientific aspects or different movements.
Speaker B:You could also call it that a lot of what you come across is around well being, well being for people, well being for planet well being economy.
Speaker B:So it's always about the question of how can we be healthy and how can we while being healthy also create systems and environments that are also healthy and that do not go to cross the boundaries of our planet.
Speaker B:So to use more resources or that, that extract planet or people in a very unhealthy way.
Speaker B:And at the same time that what you, what you just mentioned in regards to sacrifice is then a lived paradigm kind of a, a mindset for many.
Speaker B:Yeah, but that must mean I can't take any money for that or that must be paid badly.
Speaker B:Like I'm just, you Know, I'm just gonna go with a minimum because out of different reasons, one being some working with organizations like social enterprises that have very limited resources and so they think oh I can't take from them so I'm just going to go with that minimum.
Speaker B:So it's, it's often unhealthy in regards to the financial aspect but then also just self extraction if you will, self sacrifice.
Speaker B:Oh this cause is so important.
Speaker B:I, I, I must give everything that I can.
Speaker B:And then scope creep comes in because I'm, I'm delivering more out of conviction than I was supposed to.
Speaker B:And so all of those things coming together and it's, but at the same time also it's a celebrated mindset within the sector.
Speaker B:Like yeah, that's just how it must be.
Speaker B:Like yes, a challenging relationship with money and with revenue.
Speaker B:I had a very interesting conversation yesterday.
Speaker B:I was at an event and it was around the common good economy.
Speaker B:So another concept around this and we had this conversation, someone who's part of that organization and you know, saying yeah, but we, we can't make any revenue.
Speaker B:It's like that is not true.
Speaker B:You're a non profit but that doesn't mean that you can't make any revenue.
Speaker B:So yeah, I mean just a basic understanding of, of what does that mean?
Speaker B:Or can we generate revenue?
Speaker B:Can we generate profits?
Speaker B:If so, how can we do that?
Speaker B:And thinking about that part.
Speaker B:So I think there's a mix of things coming together.
Speaker B:That sacrifice out of just a cultivated mindset and culture.
Speaker B:That's just how it must be.
Speaker B:And it also, it's either your for impact or your for money can't be both.
Speaker B:So it seems to be that tension between the two and out of that, oh, I just must give everything that I can because just the cause is so relevant and why wouldn't I?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Those are quite a couple of things that I'm seeing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But how do, how do you think that we can best shift that mindset then?
Speaker A:Like for the, for both, for ourselves?
Speaker A:Because I, I feel everything that you've said here now I have felt very strongly.
Speaker A:So how, for instance, just an example, often I feel if I'm talking about like climate or something, I, I'm not doing a lot of like public speaking but the ones that I've been asked to do is often like take it for granted that I will do them for free.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:You know, it's this and I, I really struggle with kind of dealing with it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Also referring to the conversation I had yesterday because a Lot of that organization being based on volunteerism.
Speaker B:And I really, I, I, I, I think that we can come together and not, not always do we need to have a solution, how to immediately monetize everything, totally fine.
Speaker B:But we must come together under a strategic umbrella, if you will, to say, yeah, but how are we planning then to, to make this financially sustainable?
Speaker B:If I come somewhere or speak to a group of people, it makes sense.
Speaker B:If it's, it's a relevant crowd of people for me and if I can get visibility, that's okay, right?
Speaker B:So there can be, there can be barter trades, if you will.
Speaker B:But I think the, just the overall frame of thinking about the worth of what we do and not assuming for ourselves as much as for others, that that's just something that you could just give away for free.
Speaker B:Because at the end of the day, I think that's, that has to do with how do we value ourselves and what we've created in terms of business.
Speaker B:How much is that, is that worth?
Speaker B:And obviously there's, there's a worth in, in the sense of, you know, how can we contribute to just the bigger picture, but also from a commercial point of view, what, what could we, what's the price tag that we can put on that?
Speaker B:I think that's a challenging topic for a lot of people.
Speaker B:How, how do I position that?
Speaker B:What, what's the pricing for that?
Speaker B:And is that too much?
Speaker B:Especially when it's such a good cause, how can I take from that?
Speaker B:So I think it's a relevant conversation and we think about it in that sense of there's a lot of organization.
Speaker B:So from our client's perspective, being a consultancy, being a trainer or facilitator to think about, there is always the question of where do you find that blended value creation sweet spot?
Speaker B:And there's lots of places in the market where there's organizations with a need for transformation and with enough resources to get paid well.
Speaker B:So finding that spot in the market is part of what we need to do as businesses and as business owners, and we need to understand how to do that.
Speaker B:And we've developed also a way of how to do that.
Speaker B:How can we combine understanding what a systemic challenge is that we want to contribute to as much as what a customer challenge or problem is, and then building around this, because without that, it's lapping a foundation for the business to generate revenue as much as we want to generate impact.
Speaker B:So that bringing that together and to really cultivate that within ourselves and that is practice, that's just thing that we need to.
Speaker B:Where we need to work on our own paradigm in regards to value creation and worth and also relationship to money and pricing and all of those things, and being confident with that, but also understanding there's different types of customers in the market.
Speaker B:I could work with those over here and they have a big budget, and then I can cross subsidize and support another project if I'm convinced that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker B:And then I can do that.
Speaker B:But out of a strategic point of view, not out of just.
Speaker B:There never was any budget and I just agreed anyways.
Speaker B:And then I feel that's not really valuing me and everybody's leaving out of that agreement not being very happy and also not being very stable.
Speaker B:So I think that's, that's the difference.
Speaker B:Being strategic in your portfolio and building up parts of the market where you know you can, you can monetize and create impact and others where probably there's less budget but even more impact eventually.
Speaker B:Yeah, so true.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:I'm also really curious about this, like systemic change or catalytic change that you're talking about.
Speaker A:So we might often be working really hard on things that have quite a small impact or it's important, but in a very tiny space or something.
Speaker A:So how is it that you work with people to change this so that we can have more of a ripple effect in what we're working on so hard?
Speaker B:Yeah, so the approach that we started to take was if you want to drive systems change, you got to start with the system, meaning understanding which part of the system or which transition, systemic transition, focus you want to take and identifying and deeply understanding parts of the system, parts of the systemic problem, but also the alternative future and how you can support that is a really relevant aspect.
Speaker B:And excuse me, we realize that although a lot of people talk about systems change or are interested in contributing, have a really sincere intention, this first part is often missing.
Speaker B:So there's a blurry understanding of what impact or even systems change as parts of impact means, or an understanding that impact is.
Speaker B:You know, there's all kinds of forms of impact.
Speaker B:Just to give a very, very basic image here.
Speaker B:You can, if you think about poverty and if you think about homelessness, then of course you can open a soup kitchen and you can help people while living on the street to get nutrition and to have a warm meal.
Speaker B:And that's really important and really relevant because people have an urgent need to get that.
Speaker B:But it's not addressing the root cause.
Speaker B:The point where why did people become homeless in the first place and how could we work to prevent it?
Speaker B:And so just, and this is more metaphorically because we don't really work with those kinds of organizations.
Speaker B:But if we think about it in this kind of way to think about what is the symptom aspect and what are the root causes, and how can we then think about the root causes of those systemic issues?
Speaker B:How can we understand them?
Speaker B:And what would be an alternative future that we would want to see that is regenerative or sustainable and doing that kind of work together with others within the system.
Speaker B:Because it's not a solitary understanding, but it's a, it's an ecosystem understanding and it's a, it's a living system that we want to dive into and connect with to then understand where could we intervene and position our work in the best way possible.
Speaker B:And so that's one part where we help to bring together, diving deeper into specific aspects of a system where we put boundaries around this and say, this is the part that we look at.
Speaker B:So, for example, when you live into the energy transition, there's obviously a lot of aspects that you can look at and a lot of challenges around this.
Speaker B:What is it that particularly draws you in, but also that might be particularly relevant for that transition to happen.
Speaker B:So it's also about understanding not just what would I like to do, but also what is needed.
Speaker B:So coming from the need, much rather than from, oh, I think I have an idea over here.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker B:So that, that's part.
Speaker B:And then we help to connect or to derive, if you will, in particular learning and education journeys, but also facilitation and some other services and the design of that, how do we need to design those so that they can then pay into those systemic challenges that we understood.
Speaker B:So understanding what do we want to contribute to, and then connecting a customer problem to that, and then building out, if it is a learning journey, for example, in our case, we have our catalytic change environment and we help to build catalytic learning ecosystems because that's really relevant for those transitions to happen.
Speaker B:And a lot of organizations within that space, they then have, for example, a training on CSRD or something, then in the context of a food system, but it's quite disconnected and fragmented and it's not really coming together as an ecosystem of solutions.
Speaker B:In the part of consulting, facilitation training, education, where we say we've created this portfolio to position different interventions for different stakeholders, all within this context of this systemic aspect that we decided to focus on.
Speaker B:And then it becomes strategic.
Speaker B:And then also we can decide how do we need to Design, for example, a leadership development program.
Speaker B:How do we need to design that in order for participants to actually change behavior, shift mental models and mindsets and implement so that we see different outcomes?
Speaker B:And so that's how we help to connect the systemic issue with really then the design of products and services, especially in that field of facilitation, training, education, learning to see results.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So would you say that for solo practitioners this would.
Speaker A:Because you're talking a lot about the ecosystem.
Speaker A:Would it most of the time involve collaboration like between different stakeholders or different service providers or helpers in some way?
Speaker B:Let's say it definitely involves co creation, but it can take different shapes and forms.
Speaker B:It doesn't necessarily immediately take the form of collaboration.
Speaker B:It can, but it doesn't need to.
Speaker B:The main aspect is well, or maybe let me revise this because I guess it depends how you define collaboration.
Speaker B:If it's definitely there's a lot of collaboration on an informal way because you're collectively trying to understand and make sense of a systemic issue.
Speaker B:You're coming together with different stakeholders.
Speaker B:In the best case you really do this together, you make sense, you create narrative so that you collectively working on it.
Speaker B:It doesn't mean that you collaborate necessarily on creating products and services.
Speaker B:So I think that might be the difference.
Speaker B:Then this, this is where then we, we facilitate a process where it's about co creation with particular stakeholders and it could be one type of stakeholders or it could be a multi stakeholder journey, depending on what organizations want to build out, the amount of resources that they have.
Speaker B:And so when we talk about solo practitioners, as you, as you asked, we have solo practitioners building this out and then obviously it takes a, a smaller scale, but the principles behind it are the same.
Speaker B:So for example, we have one solo consultant in the context of healthcare in one of our programs at the moment he's looking into the aspect of oversupply of medication over prescription of medication, what that looks like within the healthcare ecosystem and system, what, why that is happening.
Speaker B:And there's obviously a lot of people that you can speak with, a lot of stakeholders that you can look at, the general practitioners and the patient and the specialists and the pharmacy politicians and so on.
Speaker B:So finding that place within that system where you want to then actually build products and services that you can monetize for a particular group of people, that's the biggest part of co creation at the core.
Speaker B:It can be more, but it to start there even is a big step for many.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, interesting, huh?
Speaker A:I bet you see this or rephrase, do you see a lot of examples of like, impactpreneurs who are doing it in the wrong way, or then you think, oh, I should, I should help them there and then.
Speaker A:With the best intentions, of course.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:I mean, yeah, really with the best intentions.
Speaker B:Have to say that, right?
Speaker B:The, the thing that for me, probably sometimes I forget that other people don't bring that kind of background just because for me, I always had.
Speaker B:It is the business context.
Speaker B:I think that what we need to understand is that there's all kinds of practitioners in that space wanting to make a difference, going into that and simply coming with their expertise, but forgetting that they also need to build up expertise about how to design such a business, how to run such a business.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter if you're a practice of one.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter even if you feel more like a freelancer than an entrepreneur, that's okay.
Speaker B:But still, if we want to make this work, we need to build, we need to build the vehicle in terms of impact.
Speaker B:And so I always take this aspect, this example.
Speaker B:I had a workshop with consultancy leaders and we talked about how much time they spend on honing their craft, furthering their knowledge on sustainability, and how to facilitate their clients.
Speaker B:Everything really relevant.
Speaker B:And then we spoke about, and it's like, okay, many, many thousands of hours that they spent on that, including their education and their degrees and, and everything.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So spend a lot of time with the, their expertise and their craft.
Speaker B:And then I asked them, so how much time have you spent on honing your sales skills?
Speaker B:For example, like, oh, sales skills, ah, maybe 30, 40 hours.
Speaker B:Whereas the other one was in the thousands.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I think that's part.
Speaker B:People forget that honing the, the skill of business and blended business, where we bring impact and revenue together, is as important and sometimes even more important because otherwise, yes, the expertise, of course, is, is a necessity, but without the skills in terms of business, how to build out such a business, how to identify a market that you really want to serve, how to position yourself for impact and revenue, how to build out a service journey that actually creates impact.
Speaker B:And that's the other thing.
Speaker B:Yes, many come with a good intention, but even then they might bring a topic, but they're not thinking about how can I make sure that what I'm doing actually translates into the change that I want to see?
Speaker B:And so I think that's another challenge that even, even though there's the impact label on top, many, many are challenged to actually deliver on the change that they intended to create, or it always stays A blurry picture of just a better world.
Speaker B:And so I think that those are two things that, yeah, the business skills are definitely then lacking.
Speaker B:But also even the clarity on how to create that impact in the business through a business also many are challenged by that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I feel really guilty when it comes to how many hours did you spend learning about sales, trying.
Speaker A:And this is, I feel it's a mindset thing because it's still.
Speaker A:I can't kind of come over that barrier of thinking about sales as something pushy.
Speaker A:And I keep reading, oh, it's, you know, you just.
Speaker A:It was somebody yesterday I heard, I can't remember where.
Speaker A:Like you're just going around here offering people cheesecake and they can take it if they want and they can refuse.
Speaker A:You're just going, offering them cheesecake.
Speaker A:I tried to think like that.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But what you see when people, you know, go into the impact or start up something for themselves, wanting to really make a difference and they have this great idea and really with the heart in the right place and then start to struggle and have to go out and get that like a normal job in quotes or go back to their old industry.
Speaker A:What is the main reason?
Speaker A:Is it.
Speaker A:Is it like burning?
Speaker A:Is it the financial part?
Speaker A:Is it burnout?
Speaker A:Is it.
Speaker A:What is the biggest barrier, do you think?
Speaker A:What is holding people back from kind of just breaking through?
Speaker B:The main thing that we saw was related to what I just shared before.
Speaker B:They lack the ability to build that business foundation and to implement on the aspects that are really relevant apart from delivering on their service or expertise, for example, in our case.
Speaker B:So let's say in one of our programs we had a former architect then turned systems.
Speaker B:So in the systems context, consultant and facilitator, really skilled.
Speaker B:All the people that I work with are extremely skilled and are really, really good at what they're doing.
Speaker B:So she said, whenever I'm in the project, people rave about the work that we do.
Speaker B:They're really happy.
Speaker B:We create amazing results.
Speaker B:There's great trainings, but I can't.
Speaker B:I don't know how to get a foot in the door with new customers at all.
Speaker B:It just seems completely impossible.
Speaker B:I don't know how and I don't even know how to approach organizations to lay out that.
Speaker B:That path in order to acquire a project like this.
Speaker B:So whenever I'm in a project, everything is great.
Speaker B:I'm doing great work.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But how do I get those projects?
Speaker B:What does that look like?
Speaker B:How can I get that consistency in.
Speaker B:And also eventually, of course, how can I then at least on a certain level, measure the impact that I'm creating.
Speaker B:And so we started to build out a framework around this because we saw this again and again and again.
Speaker B:Extremely skilled people, but they were lacking this business foundation.
Speaker B:And also the skills, honing the skills.
Speaker B:And exactly what you just said about sales.
Speaker B:A different, like a reframe and a different, different relationship, but also a different form of how to do marketing and sales in that case.
Speaker B:And we developed an approach around this because I was challenged by that.
Speaker B:I always felt like, okay, so how can I approach people in a way that it feels good for me?
Speaker B:How can I speak about my work in a way that it's, you know, it really feels aligned with who I am.
Speaker B:And so that, that's really just a shift, but also having a roadmap, understanding and even having a goal.
Speaker B:And maybe this is where it starts.
Speaker B:Most people, they don't really have a goal for where they want to be in 90 days or in 180 days or in 12 months.
Speaker B:And what that means in terms of revenue and impact.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So getting specific and a specific idea, but then also getting specific as in, well, if I don't know how to do this, I got to learn how to do it.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And that's where we, for example, we have one program which is like 90 days, and within 90 days build that entire foundation and land the next bespoke project.
Speaker B:At least one, because that's what we saw.
Speaker B:And even more so at the moment because what we get from, from experts and service providers right now is, yeah, until last year, I got projects out of my network.
Speaker B:I got projects through LinkedIn or I had my profile somewhere since the beginning of the year, that's not happening anymore.
Speaker B:The, the economic climate has shifted and the work that usually came to me through my network and through just referrals or know some individual things that I put out there.
Speaker B:So I need a systematic way how to win business and how to acquire customers.
Speaker B:Otherwise, as you said, I'm going to.
Speaker B:I got to leave.
Speaker B:I got to.
Speaker B:I got to get a job.
Speaker B:And so that's where we felt, okay, really got to focus on that.
Speaker B:Because usually it's not because people are not skilled.
Speaker B:Quite the opposite.
Speaker B:They are amazingly skilled, but they're lacking the skills and the plan and the foundation for how to build that business.
Speaker B:And so I think that's the main, the main reason.
Speaker B:And then eventually to also understand it's a very like you, you gotta be agile and adaptive.
Speaker B:And it's not that you put this into place.
Speaker B:Once and there's like, ah, done.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker B:Gotta kind of, you know, let me go back to focusing on my expertise.
Speaker B:No, it's an ongoing thing to figure out how it sits within the current market context and economic climate.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:And speaking of that, the market at the moment and the world at the moment, it's quite chaotic.
Speaker A:I think we can agree on.
Speaker A:And what I always try to do for myself just personally, but also to see it in the, in the world, how can we see the struggles and the way things are at the moment as a way to move into something better?
Speaker A:To maybe end on a hopeful note.
Speaker A:Can you see some ways that we can actually use the chaos in the world today to maybe, okay, some things are disappearing, but maybe that is not the best way to do it and maybe we can create something better.
Speaker A:Can you see that?
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:That when we look at crises in the past or any time in the world, there were always people who were able to see the opportunity in that.
Speaker B:Also from, from a business point of view to say in every crisis there was always, you know, big amount of people who, who earned a lot of money or also made a lot of change because people were in need.
Speaker B:And to see that as an opportunity, but also to understand that we need to shift eventually the way that we look at things.
Speaker B:How can we be of help?
Speaker B:How can, what does it mean for our business model and not to, not to hold on to, to that.
Speaker B:And especially in that kind of climate, it's easy to step into this freeze motion.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:To say, or let's just, let me just wait until it's over.
Speaker B:I was like, probably it's not going to be over.
Speaker B:That's just the world that we live in.
Speaker B:And eventually to find a way how to relate to that differently and how to, how to identify opportunities that we can build around to say this is where we can help because a lot of people are in need.
Speaker B:I'm going to give one example very specifically also from, from our business perspective with a lot of intermediaries and support organizations.
Speaker B:So for example, a social enterprise support organization that facilitates other social enterprises that works with the ecosystem eventually that advocates for that.
Speaker B:A lot of those are mainly funded and what we now see, and the same by the way goes for universities and for some other organizations that we work with.
Speaker B:What they get into now is the situation with like, oh, all of that funding is going gone, bye bye.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And so we've been preaching to this, that you need to think about how to at least have a portfolio of some of the revenue Streams where you can self fund at least the core of your business to have a stable core and then add to this with, with funding from other sources.
Speaker B:But it's not a ride or die kind of perspective.
Speaker B:It's not, oh, if that funding falls away, there's no organization anymore.
Speaker B:But to say, no, we have an entrepreneurial core and this is also how we understand ourselves.
Speaker B:And then of course, funding, if it fits, if it makes sense for certain projects, we're going to add that to this.
Speaker B:For us, this is an opportunity.
Speaker B:Because before it was more like a.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was a choice.
Speaker B:They had the funding eventually, but probably were still in a good situation.
Speaker B:Now they have to because the funding is gone or it will be gone fairly soon.
Speaker B:The political climate is changing, so certain things will not get funded anymore.
Speaker B:And so for us it was like, yeah, okay, so how can we step more into this field of helping understand, helping organizations understand we can help them how they can create revenue streams that make impact and revenue with the expertise that they have and how to take this to the market and at the same time really make a difference with what they do.
Speaker B:So it's not a choice, one or the other, but, but it's really hard to bring everything together.
Speaker B:I think that's one example that we can think about to say, yeah, constantly scanning the horizon, constantly asking how do we need to change and shift and show up eventually to support in times of crisis rather than hiding under the blanket waiting until it's over.
Speaker B:And especially in such a climate, a lot of people do that, which means if you go out and you actually offer your potential customers something, there's not going to be too many people who are going to be doing this because most assume, oh, nobody's going to invest in that at the moment anyways.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So by showing up you actually stand out and you have an opportunity to position yourself very differently compared to that.
Speaker B:So I really look at it as an opportunity, but also maybe connecting to that topic of well being, not saying that this is always easy and also not saying that it always works perfectly for me.
Speaker B:We need to work with our own well being, regulate our nervous system and think about how can we take care of ourselves to be able to do so and to make that a priority, as you said, going out, you know, sunshine, movement, nutrition, everything.
Speaker B:And to see it not as an add on at the end of the day, but as an integral part of value creation within your business.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So yeah, that, that probably then allows us to bring different things together as well.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Oh, it's so interesting.
Speaker A:I have so, so many of my last, the last guests that I had on the podcast saying exactly the same thing and coming at it from very different angles.
Speaker A:So it's so true.
Speaker A:I think it's so important and it's very easy to forget it because we're kind of just struggling through everything and yeah, if our health is not there, nothing else works, that is for sure.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you have so much work that you're doing, which is highly needed, I think for a lot of people.
Speaker A:So where, where is the best place for people to find out more about it?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Well, thanks for giving the opportunity also to, to share about it, to connect with me personally on LinkedIn.
Speaker B:So feel free to reach out and to connect through that.
Speaker B:That's the, the platform where I usually connect best.
Speaker B:Then also we currently have the Masterclass free for on this impact revenue paradox, especially of course with a focus on service providers and experts or expertise based solo practitioners and small companies that, that was framed for this.
Speaker B:But I think there's something in there, even if you don't fall into that category in terms of how to think about relevant pillars within the business to position for impact and revenue and how to rethink marketing in terms of communications, messaging and also sales more from an ethical, collaborative, even regenerative point of view.
Speaker B:What does that look like?
Speaker B:So, yeah, I can share the link with you if you want to put it somewhere in the show notes or share it with people because that's a lot of baseline that we wanted to make available for people to tap into.
Speaker A:Yes, I'm working through the Masterclass at the moment myself and I can highly recommend it.
Speaker A:It's so valuable, so many great things, things for me to learn and for a lot of people.
Speaker A:I am absolutely sure.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker A:It's so interesting and I'm learning a lot and I'm sure my listeners will as well.
Speaker A:So thank you so much.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Appreciate the invitation and yeah, looking forward to further exchange with you but also with anyone who would like to approach.
Speaker B:I'm always very interested in conversations and exchange with people around those topics.
Speaker B:So thanks for having me.
Speaker A:And that's it.
Speaker A:I don't know about you, but I just learned a lot.
Speaker A:And again, I got this really important reminder.
Speaker A:When you're trying to make a positive impact, you don't have to do it alone or for free.
Speaker A:If you liked what, what Judith shared, you should definitely try her free Masterclass.
Speaker A:I'm taking it right now as we speak and it's really helpful for anyone who wants to build a purpose driven business.
Speaker A:If you enjoyed this episode, it would be really helpful if you would leave a review on your podcast player.
Speaker A:And also if you want more of everything happening behind the scenes, more writing and other good things coming, go to my substack and sign up there to receive all the news that you can.
Speaker A:Find that on vclavnes substack.com as always, thanks so much for listening to Stories for the Future.
Speaker A:I'll see you next time.
Speaker A:Same place, different story.
