Episode 80
Stories of Impact: Climate Solutions That Could Change the World, with Pepijn van Dijk from CarbonFix
Today, we’re diving into the exciting world of climate solutions with Pepin van Dijk.
Pepin’s work with Carbon Fix is all about finding those bold, early-stage ideas—what we like to call "moonshots"—that can actually make a dent in our carbon problem. We chat about the importance of collaboration and how even in these chaotic times, innovative thinking can lead to impactful changes.
Want to be a guest on Stories for the future: Beyond the Bubble? Send Veslemoy Klavenes-Berge a message on PodMatch.
You can always find more information about the podcast and my work on storiesforthefuture.com
Takeaways:
- In this episode, we emphasize the importance of collaboration and innovation in tackling climate change, as we explore various perspectives and solutions.
- Pepijn van Dijk, our guest today, shares his journey through the worlds of business, politics, and humanitarian work, highlighting the interconnectedness of these fields.
- We discuss the concept of 'moonshots'—bold, early-stage ideas that, if successful, could significantly impact climate solutions and sustainability efforts.
- The conversation underscores that in these chaotic times, it's crucial to focus on action over talk, bridging the gap between ambition and tangible efforts.
- Pepijn elaborates on his work with Carbon Fix, where they fund innovative projects aimed at carbon reduction and sustainable practices, emphasizing the need for systemic change.
- Lastly, we reflect on the power of storytelling in making complex climate issues relatable and inspiring action, as it's stories that truly resonate with people.
Links referenced in this episode:
Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Hey there and welcome to Stories for the Future, a podcast where we bring people together to explore different viewpoints and move beyond simple yes or no answers.
Speaker A:I'm Veslumajklavnesparge and I'll be your friendly guide on this journey.
Speaker A:Come along as we have honest conversations with experts, creative thinkers, and wonderful everyday people who are helping us build bridges and imagine exciting new possibilities.
Speaker A:All of us together.
Speaker A:One of the absolute best things of running a podcast is that I become highly aware of the fact that the world is full of truly fantastic people.
Speaker A:And to be able to meet them, learn from them, and then share their stories with you is actually what makes me go on doing this year after year.
Speaker A:I find this especially important today in these uncertain times, so I'm really happy to share today's conversation with you.
Speaker A:We are back to the focus on climate and solutions, but also collaboration and how to stay on track with solving problems when the world is chaotic and divided.
Speaker A:My guest is Pepin van Dijk, who is an executive board member at a company called Carbon Fix.
Speaker A:He's a board director at Mercy Corps.
Speaker A:He has a background in international relations.
Speaker A:He's a podcast host, speaker and mountain climber, and a lot more.
Speaker A:This will be about climate, moonshots, innovation and impact.
Speaker A:And you should definitely listen and get some of the similar feelings that I have.
Speaker A:The world is really full of truly fantastic people doing great things.
Speaker A:So it is a great pleasure to welcome Pepejn van Dijk to the podcast.
Speaker A:So welcome so much.
Speaker A:I'm so happy that you could take the time in a very busy schedule.
Speaker B:I know, it's great to be with you.
Speaker B:Thank you for the invite.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And looking at your background and what I've been reading, I think that keywords for this conversation are innovation, collaboration, and maybe also seeing things from a little slightly different angle and doing things in a bit different way, I think.
Speaker A:And of course, again, as always, the backdrop is still the energy transition and accelerating climate friendly solutions with all its complexities and different perspectives that people have coming from all different angles.
Speaker A:So you are co founder and executive board member of a company called Carbon Fix and you're also board director at Mercy Corps, which is a big international humanitarian organization.
Speaker A:And you're a public speaker, you're a podcast host, and you have background from politics and other startups.
Speaker A:And I think I didn't get everything, did I?
Speaker A:Can you please fill in?
Speaker B:Well, you did a good job and it's, it's nice to hear someone summarize this and I think your first three words were pretty spot on.
Speaker B:You said innovation, collaboration and trying to change the world.
Speaker B:And I think what I do is, is looking back at my working life, it's been 20, 25 years now is it all comes down to impact, I guess it's, it's trying to make a difference, of course for the people around me, but if possible for the world as a whole or a country or Europe.
Speaker B:And so that's what I always try to combine different disciplines.
Speaker B:Sometimes I joke that I am a, a, a societal triathlete.
Speaker B:I'm trying to combine business with activism and politics.
Speaker B:And I think that's a great combination because there you can really see a system from all kinds of perspectives and you can, you know, different kinds of ways of working, different kind of people, different kind of levers to really make.
Speaker A:A difference, would you say?
Speaker A:Because I think it's always so interesting to hear how people ended up where they are and why they do what they do.
Speaker A:So looking back, would you say that you had any kind of defining moments or why did you end up where you are today?
Speaker B:Oh, I don't see it as ending up somewhere.
Speaker B:What I do is I follow my interests, I follow opportunities, and I have a couple of values that I hold dear and that I really use as a compass.
Speaker B:And sometimes that brings me to the world of politics, sometimes that brings me into the NGO world.
Speaker B:And it always has something to do with being an entrepreneurial, to having an entrepreneurial mindset applied to societal change or something, or making the world a better place.
Speaker B:And I especially like, and I think it's really important to do that in an energy transition in all sustainability world as I think it's the biggest adventure of our generation.
Speaker B:I really see it as something that, that's a great opportunity for all of us to make the future even better.
Speaker B:I think we're in a pretty dire spot now, the world.
Speaker B:I mean, we can talk about that if you want to, from, from politics, economically, socially, but we also have the greatest opportunity ever to make it into something really nice as long as we all work together.
Speaker B:So that's where the corporation comes in, I think.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So I don't see my career as something that goes now that goes somewhere.
Speaker B:I think it's more of a, A, a river where I sometimes take in and out and I just do whatever I think is where I have the most value because that's really important to me.
Speaker B:Where can I really add value?
Speaker A:Yes, you said something interesting there at the beginning, that you have some, some values that you kind of are your guiding Posts and I'm curious, did you, have you been aware of those values your entire career or since you were kind of a student?
Speaker A:Because I, I think I didn't think about that before.
Speaker A:I was maybe over more than 40.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, no, I see what you mean.
Speaker B:That's a good question.
Speaker B:So let me, let me, I'm not sure.
Speaker B:So I haven't thought about that yet.
Speaker B:But I think my parents are psychologist and a journalist.
Speaker B:So there was always debate, there was always interest in the world outside of our little home.
Speaker B:I've moved quite a bit to different countries.
Speaker B:So I always had this sense of there's more out there and there's, you know, there's, there, there's, you could do more than only let's say the standard career.
Speaker B:So when I had to choose what to study after a year abroad where I learned Spanish, I said to myself well maybe I should, should go for a study where you learn as much as possible, but not a real specialization.
Speaker B:So that became a political science.
Speaker B:Science.
Speaker B:Science with the international relations as my, my focus for.
Speaker B:So for me there was a great preparation to, to, to get out into the world.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think it has always been there.
Speaker B:I always wanted to, to, to add value and I was always busy with understanding how the world works.
Speaker B:I remember maybe as a side note that I had in 95 my, my football club Ajax won the Champions League last time we did.
Speaker B:But it also also was the war in Rwanda if you remember the hoot seats were having a civil war and I came, I came across a photo album of, in, of 95, 96 and I would just where I just had clipped all those little news articles and there were two subjects, those two.
Speaker B:So as a, as a, as a 15, 16 year old boy that was interested in war and in football.
Speaker B:So that's, I, I think that's a quite atypical thing to, to be interested in rwanda when you're 15.
Speaker B:So maybe that's where it came from.
Speaker A:Yeah, interesting.
Speaker A:So I think we have to talk a lot about Carbon fix, but before we go there, could you just share a little bit about Mercy Corps and your involvement with them?
Speaker A:Because I think that is also a very interesting angle understanding your work with them and why you do that.
Speaker B:So Mercy Corp is a big American but international but it's headquarters in America organization that works a lot alongside communities to, to build a more resilient and inclusive future basically.
Speaker B:So we go into countries where people are in need because of climate change or conflict basically.
Speaker B:And we do that in 42 countries with a big staff, of course.
Speaker B:And it's, it's just, for me it's a, and I'm a board member, so I'm not in the daily operations, so I do have involvement, you know, on the strategy etc, but in the end it's all the, it's more of a, a board of trustees issue like in Europe or not.
Speaker B:Board of.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a different model so we called board directors, but it's more trustees and what we do.
Speaker B:So what I do there is trying to, to bring innovation to think about how could we be even more efficient, how do we reach those communities better?
Speaker B:And it's a big learning in a sense that being on such an international board is also different.
Speaker B:It requires a different skill set.
Speaker B:Being more entrepreneurial with Carbon Fix and just, you know, vetting ventures and trying to fund the best moonshots out there and to make a difference in terms of innovation.
Speaker B:It's a total different ball game from trying to understand where a big organization as military corps needs to go into, to do the due diligence, etc.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But I learned a lot from it.
Speaker B:I mean, I mean it's great to have.
Speaker B:My, my peers are really interesting people.
Speaker B:They're from all over the globe.
Speaker B:They, they're pretty senior.
Speaker B:Interesting conversations about how, how, how do we see development aid develop in the future.
Speaker B:And it also, it's also this focus on the human aspect.
Speaker B:So it's always about communities and people.
Speaker B:I don't Africa but majority.
Speaker B:And so it's always a real life, it's always about you helping others and making them resilient and you.
Speaker B:And we see firsthand all the effects of climate change as well within.
Speaker B:So you see how those changes affect the poorer communities.
Speaker B:You see how they are struggling with getting their livelihoods together with their environment, just making sure that they survive.
Speaker B:So sometimes the climate or sustainability debate here in Europe can be pretty abstract and we travel from cop to cop or from, from summit to summit and you see politicians talk about it.
Speaker B:When you see the actual figures or even when you go to visit a project, you actually see what's happening on the ground.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think that's, that's a good thing to have and at least I think it's good for me to understand both the theory and the practice.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So you get a really strong reason for doing the work that you do in Carbon Fix, which we have to talk about now.
Speaker A:So you support climate solutions, but you do it in a slightly different way.
Speaker A:This is about what you call venture philanthropy, is that right?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And it's about bold solutions.
Speaker A:So could you tell us about.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:When we started Carbon Fix, we set out with the idea that we needed to find a sweet spot, spot where we really could add value because we're not the biggest of funds, we're not we really small team.
Speaker B:So we have energy, we have talent and we have a bit of money.
Speaker B:So where can we add value?
Speaker B:And we found out that it's basically there where no one dares to go.
Speaker B:So there's so many ideas out there that are not funded or not taken seriously because they're too early stage.
Speaker B:And we said we want to find and fund those people.
Speaker B:So scientists in a lab or entrepreneurs with a great idea but still in a job or a spin out of university, that's, that's looking for the next step.
Speaker B:All those where the, let's say the impact investment world or the VCs or, or whoever are just shying away from because it's just too early.
Speaker B:There's no business model, there's no proven track record, there's no scientific research, etc.
Speaker B:So we said, well, we need to do that.
Speaker B:And we call those the moonshots because that's the second criterion we have.
Speaker B:We're not crazy or we are a bit crazy, but we do want to find those that if they are successful, if they are, if they really get at scale, they're going to make a real dent in the universe.
Speaker B:And those what we call moonshots.
Speaker B:Carbon moonshots if you like.
Speaker B:Because that's a third thing we really believe it needs to be carbon, everything carbon.
Speaker B:So reduction, mitigation, avoidance, all, everything we do with carbon.
Speaker B:Because in the end it's a carbon game we're playing here.
Speaker B:Need to pull out carbon, we need to avoid carbon, we need to reduce carbon.
Speaker B:So that's where we are.
Speaker B:And so last year was, we've been able to fund 10 great projects ranging from, from let's say more the geoengineering space where you really try to regulate temperature to really low tech, simple tools.
Speaker B:But that can be really, really effective if implemented well.
Speaker B:So that's, that's pretty amazing.
Speaker B:We do that with a small team here in Amsterdam.
Speaker B:We, we fund globally.
Speaker B:Of course there's a, I think there's a focus on Europe because we know that better.
Speaker B:But we also have funded the American ventures.
Speaker B:Yeah, and, and, and doing that also made us realize that there is that we should do more, even more.
Speaker B:Because even if all those Ventures are successful, we will not be able to really tackle the climate issue.
Speaker B:So we said, as most people do in this space, that we also need to become better at systemic work.
Speaker B:So this year we've been introducing grants for systemic carbon interventions.
Speaker B:So that's supporting projects and initiatives that want to change the system itself.
Speaker B:So then you have to think about advocacy, lobby research, activism, community building, that kind of initiatives.
Speaker B:And I think those two combined.
Speaker B:So both the venturing, if you like, bottom up, greatest ideas, greatest minds brought together on a, you know, a trajectory where they really can make a difference with the system thinking and the system change initiatives, then we can really make a difference.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So what I'm, I'm sure people are really curious to hear about some, some examples so of projects that you have been working on.
Speaker A:And I read on a blog post that you had so really some like freezing dark.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's the one that has that gained the most media attraction because.
Speaker B:Yeah, for a reason that it really appeals to people because.
Speaker B:Well, so let's start with that one.
Speaker B:So those are two guys from University Delft.
Speaker B:Well the, they partner up of the university in Delft and therefore one of them is former Kinsey entrepreneurs.
Speaker B:And they said, well, why don't we apply just a Dutch method of making ice.
Speaker B:Ice.
Speaker B:Making ice on let's say just on grass fields.
Speaker B:What we do here.
Speaker B:So what we, we just spray water on it, we wait until it freezes up and then we start ice skating.
Speaker B:That's what we do in Holland.
Speaker B:Well, what we do because it's getting more and more difficult nowadays and they applied that whole thinking through the whole region of the Arctic.
Speaker B:So why don't we try to, to, to, to, to spray water on the ice in wintertime so it remains thicker in summertime.
Speaker B:And thicker ice means more, it means whiter ice and whiter means a higher albedo effect, you know, reflecting the sun back.
Speaker B:And so we financed their first pilot just making, making it possible for them to go actually to the Arctic and to do their first pilot and get the, get the data in.
Speaker B:And they're now analyzing the data and, and looking for, you know, now in the next phase of, you know, trying to find funding, trying to define the next project.
Speaker B:And in the end those projects, they, they're really interesting but they will need a really big international coalition of funders, but also governments, I think, and organizations to support them because this is just too big of a thing to do it on your own, of course.
Speaker B:But we're really happy to have been able to, to Push the first domino if you like just to further, you know, to make the first step.
Speaker B:And we're helping them out now for the next, next couple of, of refinancing rounds.
Speaker B:So that's, that, that's one of them.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they've been all over the place so that they had a, they had a journalist from I think the Washington Post come and tag along with them and they've been in the Guardian of course, they've been in every new show here.
Speaker B:So that's really funny to see.
Speaker B:It's great.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Have you, you talked also about, do you have any projects where you, where you pull out carbon, like carbon removal?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, we have quite some of those.
Speaker B:It's been quite popular because everybody understands now that it's needed to really to, to pull the carbon out.
Speaker B:It's not enough to just reduce it, but you really need to remove it.
Speaker B:But also there, there's no one in the world that has actually done it on a megaton scale yet.
Speaker B:So even the most, the most, the biggest ones that everybody know of in your client work etc, they're still really small scale in terms of just what they actually pull out of the sky.
Speaker B:So, so what we try to do is throughout the whole escalation letter as we call it, so from Void Carbon to Geo Engineering through CCUS and CDR to try to find a couple of those jams of, of those moonshots and to develop them and also share the lessons with, with the outside world.
Speaker B:Because even if a pathway as we call them doesn't work, that's success as well.
Speaker B:Because then we can say well it didn't work so maybe we should shift to that one.
Speaker B:So it's also about just applying this entrepreneurial mindset or this innovation to, to your own thinking and to not, not shy away from doing, doing strange stuff.
Speaker B:Let me give you another, another example of totally different kind of venture we back, we're backing that's called act.
Speaker B:And what they have is a, a AI powered shipping solution.
Speaker B:So you have to, to, to consider As I think 3% of all emissions is coming from global shipping and they have built a, I think a tool, you can call it a tool where they think they can just with the data so without hardware they can optimize the fleet efficiency with at least 5% on the short term and maybe up to 40% on the long term.
Speaker B:Imagine if we could scale this one to have a, just a software tool, make shipping 40% more efficient.
Speaker B:That's a game changer.
Speaker A:Yes, that's A total.
Speaker B:So, so that's one we, we did as well.
Speaker B:So they're, they're, they're out there, they're, they're, they're doing their first vessel.
Speaker B:So data is coming in.
Speaker B:So it's, it's about that thing.
Speaker B:So someone needs to start with it and let's see how, how far it gets.
Speaker B:Let's see if it can really scale this and to apply it in the end to all vessels out there.
Speaker B:Another one?
Speaker A:Yes, please.
Speaker B:So total opposite.
Speaker B:Total opposite.
Speaker B:I think that's, it's underground forest.
Speaker B:That's adventure.
Speaker B:That puts wood trees back into the ground.
Speaker A:Ah.
Speaker B:So let us thinking it's, it's basically the most, most ancient tech there is.
Speaker B:We've been doing that for centuries.
Speaker B:I mean, Amsterdam's built on, on wooden piles.
Speaker B:So what they're doing, they're putting the millennia, they're putting their trees back into the ground and they're doing that, storing the carbon that's in the trees into the ground.
Speaker B:And it locks the carbon for centuries.
Speaker B:It just stays there.
Speaker B:And the good thing is it's not only low tech, so it's easy to do and we know how to do it.
Speaker B:But also you could use it then because you have a better soil if you like to build stuff on it.
Speaker B:You could build a whole new neighborhood on this, you know, farmland that you've been piling.
Speaker B:And in the end, again, if we can scale this, it's a megaton potential again.
Speaker A:But how do they do it in like practically?
Speaker A:Do they put machines?
Speaker A:A machine.
Speaker A:Okay, so dig them down into the ground?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So what you do is just the wood piling is drilling it in basically.
Speaker A:Ah, right.
Speaker B:And they take it from wood that has already been, it's already down so you don't have to cut the forest for it.
Speaker B:So I mean, we, when we came across this one, said, well, we need to do this, this is just, this is too interesting and maybe we can get it, we can pull it off.
Speaker B:So that's basically the range we're looking at now.
Speaker B:And now as I said, now we're trying to find and add projects that are more on the systemic side as well.
Speaker B:So we, we're talking to all kind of activists all around the world and, and, and lobbyists and, and researchers, et cetera.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I have two questions now.
Speaker A:The first one is kind of a little bit going back because you talked, you mentioned the word geoengineering at a point and I'm just curious about how you, I mean, some people just like get really scared when you mention that word.
Speaker A:Because that kind of messing.
Speaker A:It's messing with the nature.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker A:And like we haven't done that already.
Speaker B:True.
Speaker B:We've been doing the biggest engineering scheme ever for the last last hundred years.
Speaker B:That was your engineering to the Mac.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:So how do you kind of.
Speaker A:What are your thoughts about that?
Speaker A:Like the.
Speaker A:Do you have a limit, like spraying things into the atmosphere?
Speaker A:Would that be over the limit or.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:How do you think about it?
Speaker B:Well, we look at case by case, but we do have a, A strategy.
Speaker B:We say yes, we totally agree with those people who say it's dangerous or it's potentially dangerous because you do not know what the systemic effects are of this kind of interventions.
Speaker B:For example, if you are brightening the clouds in the US you could have a storm in Europe that actually happens.
Speaker B:But then again, we are not in the luxury position not to at least venture into it and just have.
Speaker B:And so what we do, we don't do geoengineering project big scale.
Speaker B:We say let's fund research, let's fund people that want to get the data out.
Speaker B:Let's fund pilots that at least explore it in a, maybe in a model or a really small scale pilot instead of doing big stuff because then you don't know.
Speaker B:So we are aware of the dangers, we do not like it, but we think it's critical to have all the pathways on the table.
Speaker B:We often say we cannot rest knowing there are so many great ideas out there that are not being funded, are not being explored.
Speaker B:So having said that, we have a small portion, I would say 10% of our portfolio that we are investing into geoengineering projects.
Speaker B:So we rather go, let's say further down the scale or up if you like, and try to do more avoidance project.
Speaker B:Because in the end the geoengineering stuff is at the end of what you can do.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:One more expensive, two more difficult.
Speaker B:So you better go back into the.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To the back to.
Speaker B:Let's try to avoid or to reduce or to capture CO2.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Instead of trying to fiddle with the, with the temperature of the earth.
Speaker A:Yes, yes, exactly.
Speaker A:So, and, and then my, my other thing that I, I thought about was when you said systemic changes and what do you want to do more in that area and all the, all the stakeholders that you involve when you're doing a systemic change, who do you think about?
Speaker A:So I ask, because on this season of the podcast, I talk to people within the oil and gas industry, for instance, where the constant dilemma is the kind of the balance between profit and what they know they need to do, you know, and how we maybe need.
Speaker A:It's not the lack of technology, it's the lack of, I don't know, new business models or political incentives or, I don't know.
Speaker A:But who do you involve?
Speaker A:Like, is it academia, is it big?
Speaker A:Could it be oil and gas companies, for instance?
Speaker A:When you look at those, I don't.
Speaker B:Think it's, it's, it's, it's logical for us to actually work for them with them because they are still emitting and we're trying to reduce or avoid CO2 emissions.
Speaker B:So it would be strange.
Speaker B:Having said that, we do acknowledge that they're one of the biggest challenge of the energy transition is infrastructure and just scale of it.
Speaker B:And so even if you look at the mining industry, you would need somewhere to, to partner up with them.
Speaker B:But maybe for your content.
Speaker B:We are not in the business of looking for business models yet.
Speaker B:Even our money is almost free.
Speaker B:We have loans and we have grants and that makes us a bit special in this space because we say we are not looking for financial returns.
Speaker B:And the moment you're not looking for financial returns, I think there's a bigger liberty, at least in your mind to look at crazier ideas.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So the, and, and that's, that's what we really try to do.
Speaker B:So we want to be really humble in our role, but also really, really bold.
Speaker B:And we can do that because we don't have this push of making a financial return.
Speaker B:And so I don't think that connection is really easy to make with bigger companies that really want to make this return because we say our return is a better climate or less CO2, if you like.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I see what you mean.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So, yes, this I'm really curious about because you have worked so much internationally, so has that shaped how you see the, the energy transition?
Speaker A:Because there's like where it's so different if you live in Africa or if you live in, in Europe when it comes to energy security.
Speaker A:The effects of climate change already.
Speaker A:So how has that influenced you, do you think?
Speaker B:Well, as we said in the beginning, I think it's, it shows you the direct effects on communities.
Speaker B:If you actually been.
Speaker B:I've been.
Speaker B:I've spent quite some time in Africa working there on and off in a couple of countries.
Speaker B:Madagascar, Mali, Rwanda and especially in Madagascar.
Speaker B:It's, it's pretty intense to see the effects of, you know, the, the forest, tropical forest just disappearing.
Speaker B:And we were flying over the, the area there in the in, in the, in the north and it's just, it's just wasteland now where there, you know, used to be beautiful lush tropical forests.
Speaker B:So that's really, that's a, that's a big shame.
Speaker B:But seeing that yourself is, is pretty intense I think.
Speaker B:And it helps you to understand the, the scale of it and from working internationally.
Speaker B:I think, yeah, it's a bit of a cliche, but it helps to, to integrate different perspective, doesn't it?
Speaker B:And I think that, that, that, that helps every person that helps in, you know, as a, as a professional but also as a human being just to understand that not everybody is the same and that we, well, in the end we are all the same.
Speaker B:We all want the same thing for our lives, but we come from different backgrounds and different perspectives.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, so when you think about people not having access to energy at all and that we can't expect we should maybe in the Western world do a little bit more with what we have already than we can expect from, from other part parts of the world.
Speaker A:So are you optimistic when it comes to like developing countries jumping like what do you do you call it leapfrogging the, the, the area with fossil fuels and going directly into, into more sustainable energy?
Speaker B:I don't have the numbers now, but there's always this example of them leapfrogging the whole mobile phone revolution.
Speaker B:Of course that's, that's our example.
Speaker B:I think there is a big opportunity for, for Africa for instance to do so.
Speaker B:But that also involves big investments and if I see the lack of willingness from Europe to invest in Africa or I mean if you look at the, at the COVID area, if you like, I mean, showed us that we are still keeping it for ourselves and we still pulling up all those trade barriers and there will be even more under Trump.
Speaker B:So if you're not willing to really trade with the, with the continental people, it's going to be difficult to have foreign direct investments, I think and it's going to pretty difficult to have actually those, this, those new technologies in place.
Speaker B:But I think that would be, that would be a great opportunity and I think the, the whole continent of Africa is of course really well placed to do so.
Speaker B:Yeah, and I think lots happening as well.
Speaker B:I mean I remember 10 years ago I was trying to sell solar lamps in, in, in Mali and some charcoal technology, new oven and on paper it was all perfect.
Speaker B:You know, our Excel sheet was just brilliant.
Speaker B:But trying to convince local communities that they need to change from their, what they've been using for, for Decades or even more or maybe centuries to something new that they, and you're asking them to invest it with a payback time of seven years.
Speaker B:I think that was, in our case, that was a hard sell, I can tell you.
Speaker A:Yes, yes.
Speaker A:Yeah, I can understand.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So my next question was actually what you see as my, as our biggest challenge at the moment.
Speaker B:Who's we?
Speaker A:Yeah, everybody.
Speaker B:The world.
Speaker A:The world.
Speaker A:The human race.
Speaker A:But then you mentioned politics.
Speaker A:I think maybe we can take those in one question, because I don't normally talk a lot about politics, but how do you see the political landscape and the really divisive stance and polarization happening today in the context of the energy transition?
Speaker A:So how do we kind of keep on going and push for the change and keep the momentum also for collaboration maybe across this divisions?
Speaker B:Yeah, so I think, I think there's two questions there from you.
Speaker B:I think the challenge we have in, in in general is bridging the gap between ambition and action.
Speaker B:Less talking, more doing.
Speaker B:I think that's really mean.
Speaker B:It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a matter of just making those steps.
Speaker B:You start where you are, collaborate.
Speaker B:Each one has his own role to play, but just do it.
Speaker B:I mean, I would really, I say to everyone who's now being a bit gutted because of their political environment, just.
Speaker B:Yes, I see.
Speaker B:I totally agree.
Speaker B:It's, it's, it's a really big issue.
Speaker B:You see, you know, corporate zoning out.
Speaker B:Of course, you see Trump, you see the rise of populism or at least populistic populist politics.
Speaker B:That's not the same thing as populist people, I would say, because I'm not convinced that the electorate really wants this, but it's at least something that is happening now.
Speaker B:I say to those people, just don't check out, don't check out.
Speaker B:Just be part of this adventure.
Speaker B:I mean, let's see Trump and everything that's happening as a big invitation to the rest of us to step up our game, to actually do something and to get involved and do not, you know, you know, staying this phase of analysis and saying that the world is going and going south.
Speaker B:But it's just try to understand that there's in this turbulence.
Speaker B:There is also a great energy for change, as long as you're willing to take it and willing to do something about it.
Speaker A:Yes, but, yes, I agree with you and I was, I will just tell you a short.
Speaker A:As a story or like experience I had because I work a lot with kind of Trying to understand how people with different perspectives can collaborate or even talk to each other across the kind of oil and gas divide.
Speaker A:So me coming from the oil and gas industry originally and having moved into what I call another bubble and how do we communicate?
Speaker A:And I was looking at this, there's organization called, I think it was called Braver Angels.
Speaker A:I found it online.
Speaker A:They had these e courses about how to speak with people with a very different political stance.
Speaker A:And I went through it and was really, oh yes, this is great.
Speaker A:Of course you do it like that and you listen and you acknowledge and you do.
Speaker A:And then I sat down and listened to this word.
Speaker A:I can't pronounce inauguration, the term.
Speaker A:You know, when he was.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it just all fell apart for me again because this is so hard.
Speaker A:So I just, just coming back to that.
Speaker A:How do you really collaborate when you have and you do that or you, you try to pull in different stakeholders, maybe not with that, different views, but still, how, how to collaborate, how to kind of speak?
Speaker B:Well, I would say, I mean, if there's just people you do not need to collaborate with because it's total nonsense to try to.
Speaker B:So I mean, I would never try to convince Trump or his accolades to, to collaborate with us in the.
Speaker B:Doesn't make sense.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:So let's leave, leave them where they are.
Speaker B:Make sure that we stand up to, to bullies.
Speaker B:Let's make sure that we do not give any room for, for even a hint of, of, of, of dictatorship or fascism or however you want to call it and carry on with our work.
Speaker B:I mean, the people I talk to, I mean, we have the same discussions.
Speaker B:How do you, how do you, you know, keep energized?
Speaker B:How do you stay energized?
Speaker B:How do you, how do you go on?
Speaker B:And in the end, our, our solution is just believe in your, believe in your work, head down, carry on, keep on doing the good things and go into nature some for once in a while to, to get some inspiration.
Speaker B:I think that in the end is, is what, what we, what we need to do.
Speaker B:And do not forget we do not have to agree all on the same goal.
Speaker B:I mean, I think there's research saying that if 25% of society is actually convinced of something, that's a tipping point, and then the rest will follow.
Speaker B:So if 25% changes its behavior, be it on climate change or be it on being a vegetarian or being it on even adopting vaccination or even on, on, on, on certain debates that are, I mean, we used to talk here in the Netherlands about Black Pete.
Speaker B:If you, if you maybe mean that they're dressing up as, as, as, as Black Peach with our national holiday of Sinterklaas.
Speaker B:That was a whole issue and suddenly we have abolished the whole term.
Speaker B:We're not and we, we don't talk about it anymore.
Speaker B:And because it's 25% through activism, through people really advocating for change, made it possible, now we all find it really normal to not mention it anymore.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's, I think how we need to look at it.
Speaker B:We need to have those front runners, you know, pave the way, show what, what, what can happen.
Speaker B:Have really great storytelling.
Speaker B:We haven't talked about that yet, but I think that need a need for more storytelling.
Speaker B:And in the end, you know, having this perspective, having those moonshots if you like, or front runners, then we, then we have a chance to actually get to this better, better future.
Speaker A:Yes, I agree.
Speaker A:Talk more about storytelling because how, how do you try to implement that?
Speaker B:Well, I think people don't remember statistics.
Speaker B:Don't they?
Speaker B:They remember stories.
Speaker B:And data is, is, is maybe convincing for some people like you and me from people that are more in their minds, but the stories really touch the heart.
Speaker B:I don't know many people that read 100 page reports, but I do know people that have, you know, look at short stories either on YouTube or on a stage or wherever, and they feel inspired or they feel empowered to, to, to join the disadventure.
Speaker B:So I think that that's one.
Speaker B:And it's also a way to maybe to, to, to cut through the complexity.
Speaker B:It's about, we often say at Carbon Fix that we also have to manage the overwhelm.
Speaker B:And if you like, you are into this business, have been into the business for a while, then it's can be pretty overwhelming.
Speaker B:And then like you just said, you know, the integration of Trump is a real setback.
Speaker B:And you feel, you, you know, you feel bad and you feel maybe depressed even I had that for a while as well.
Speaker B:But then in the end, if you can bring it back to, well, this is in that in indeed overwhelming.
Speaker B:But there is, you know, there's also all those things that's happening.
Speaker B:We, we've been through all those decades of, of activism and, and people that are trying to do good stuff and we, we're standing on their shoulders and we should keep on going.
Speaker B:And in the end it's not all that bad.
Speaker B:I mean, there's this beautiful work from our world in data.
Speaker B:And also, you probably know the book from what's her Name again.
Speaker B:The world is not going to die.
Speaker A:Yes, I'm reading it.
Speaker B:That's pretty convincing stuff.
Speaker B:Not the whole picture, but it's pretty convincing stuff and that's what we need to do.
Speaker B:Yes, that's your role.
Speaker B:That's my role, yeah.
Speaker A:So true, so true.
Speaker A:I have one final question for you and it's one that I would have liked to ask you if I met you, like eight years ago.
Speaker B:So where was it?
Speaker B:Eight years ago?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Where were you?
Speaker A:And I can tell you where I was.
Speaker A:I had just left oil and gas industry.
Speaker A:I was a bit disillusioned.
Speaker A:I was really worried about the planet and people.
Speaker A:It was the refugee crisis like you saw on all the TV screens.
Speaker A:And so with your background.
Speaker A:Because back then I was really frustrated.
Speaker A:I didn't know what to do.
Speaker A:So with your background, both working with climate solutions and humanitarian issues, how would you say that I could use my time, my skills, my resources, my background in the best way to make a positive impact in the world?
Speaker A:You have been talking about impact yourself.
Speaker A:So kind of from fossils to the future for me back then, what would have been your advice for me?
Speaker B:So you just left oil and gas and you were on the crossroad asking me what to do now?
Speaker B:Yeah, you were already.
Speaker B:Were you already focused on making your way into the climate space?
Speaker A:Yeah, no, I was.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Where can I make the biggest difference?
Speaker A:And climate came a little bit later because I realized that climate, climate would make everything else worse for all the people that were suffering.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I would probably have said that coming from the oil and gas industry, you are credible in an industry and that you're probably a good go to person for those still in the oil and gas industry to get inspir, to get inspiration and to maybe change their minds.
Speaker B:I would probably say I would equip you with a extra set of tools and skills.
Speaker B:Maybe around maybe podcasting, maybe storytelling, maybe, I don't know, consultancy.
Speaker B:Say go back, go back into oil and gas and try to convince them either to join your fight or to stop what they're doing in the way they're doing it now.
Speaker B:Because if you, as without my, my shipping example, are able to shift only 1% of that big industry, you're making a big difference.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I think that's great advice and I would say that with a little bit of a detour, I'm a bit almost there now.
Speaker B:Things always take longer than you expect.
Speaker A:Yeah, it does.
Speaker A:It's a really squiggly path.
Speaker A:You can say thank you so much for your time.
Speaker A:It has been really really interesting.
Speaker B:Likewise.
Speaker B:Really enjoyed this.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Yeah and best of luck with all your work and and I will follow you and see what you're up to with all the bold solutions.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker A:Looking forward to that.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:So if you're like me, you just want to go now and find out more about freezing of the Arctic underground forests and all the other bold solutions that you just heard about.
Speaker A:And you can do that@carbonfix.org and check out Pepine's work by going to his LinkedIn profile.
Speaker A:I will as always add the links underneath the episode, wherever that is for you.
Speaker A:If you want to have an easy way to find more information about the podcast and my work and writing in general and also get noticed when there's a new episode out, the best way is to subscribe on substack.
Speaker A:Go to vklavenes.subtech.com or my website stories for the future.com thanks for listening.
Speaker A:Take care and I will be back soon.
