Episode 99
Leading with Purpose When the World Is in Chaos, with Sylvana Rochet
In this episode, I’m joined by executive coach and strategic advisor Sylvana Rochet, who works with founders, CXOs, and visionary leaders at companies like Slack, Tesla, Netflix, and Apple. We talk about how to lead through uncertainty without losing your purpose — and yourself.
Sylvana shares:
- What conscious leadership looks like in times of crisis
- How to manage identity shifts during career pivots
- Her “Three Cs” framework for navigating big transitions
- Why emotional intelligence is the most underrated leadership skill
Connect with Sylvana Rochet:
🌐 Website: https://www.elanvital.co/
🎙️ Podcast: Life by Intention Podcast (Listen here)
🔗 LinkedIn: Sylvana Rochet
More from Veslemøy:
💌 Newsletter & blog: vklavenes.substack.com
🌿 Website & podcast hub: storiesforthefuture.com
🎧 This episode was made possible with support from Creative Space – a brilliant community of coaches, creatives, and solopreneurs who inspire and support my work daily.
Mentioned in this episode:
Thanks to Creative Space for supporting this episode! Visit getcreativespace.com
Transcript
Hey there, and welcome back to another episode.
Speaker A:I have really been looking forward to sharing this conversation with you because we're diving into the heart of what it really means to lead during times of chaos, change, and complexity.
Speaker A:And that time is now for many of us.
Speaker A:My guest is the brilliant and wonderful Sylvana Rocher.
Speaker A:She is a strategic advisor and executive coach to visionary leaders building solutions for our planet, people and society.
Speaker A:Her guidance enables them to lead with less friction and greater impact as they scale, pivot, or evolve.
Speaker A:We'll talk about how to lead through uncertainty without losing your mission or your mind, what happens to our identity during career shifts, and how to build true resilience from the inside out.
Speaker A:There is so much practical wisdom in this conversation.
Speaker A:It's almost like a masterclass in leadership, both for leading yourself and others.
Speaker A:My advice, Take this one for a walk, put on some good shoes, and enjoy all the benefits of movement while you absorb valuable insights for your knowledge bank.
Speaker A:Let's dive in.
Speaker B:Welcome, Silvana.
Speaker B:I'm so, so happy to have you as my guest on the podcast.
Speaker B:And I have so many questions, so I think I need to limit myself for your sake and for the listeners.
Speaker B:But welcome.
Speaker C:Thank you so much.
Speaker C:I am so pumped to be here with you today.
Speaker B:That's good.
Speaker B:And you are based in France at the moment?
Speaker B:Yes, but on LinkedIn, you call yourself the American coach in France, so that's interesting.
Speaker B:Can you tell us a little bit about what's that connection?
Speaker B:Are you from France and.
Speaker B:Yeah, what's up with that?
Speaker C:Oh, where am I from?
Speaker C:I don't think I can even answer that question.
Speaker C:I am what you call a third culture kid.
Speaker C:And what that means is.
Speaker C:So a third culture kid is somebody who was born in a certain country that is usually not the country of their parents.
Speaker C:And then each of their parents has a different culture, a different country that they came from.
Speaker C:So this child is the product of three countries or three cultures, so to speak.
Speaker C:So I'm a third culture kid because I was born in the United States to a French father and a Colombian mother.
Speaker C:I grew up between France and Colombia as a young child and then moved to the States in high school and, you know, did like, most of my adult life in the States, I would say, you know, went to university in the States, worked in New York, lived and worked in California.
Speaker C:So I feel like culturally I am very, very much a American from the usa, you know, but I also have these.
Speaker C:These very strong cultural links that are very much part of my life to France and to Colombia.
Speaker C:And obviously I speak the language and I have family in both of these countries, so that's sort of my thing.
Speaker C:You know, when I moved back to France two years ago with, with my husband, my very American husband, our American born children, I was thinking about what to call myself here in France to sort of differentiate myself, you know, something that would be a little unique about me.
Speaker C:So I came up with a friend, actually.
Speaker C:She was the one who said, you should call yourself the American coach in France.
Speaker C:And I said, yeah, that has a fun ring to it.
Speaker C:Let's, let's try it out and see.
Speaker C:But I could have been, you know, called many other things just because of.
Speaker C:I'm a mutt.
Speaker C:I'm such a mix.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But it's, it's really interesting because with your connection to the US and where you live at the moment, and because lately on my podcast I had this focus on having quite a lot of guests coming from the US or being connected to the US Mainly to show the world that it's so important at the moment that we don't stereotype and put everyone in one box.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So that's one reason why you fit right in.
Speaker B:But also I'm focusing on people who have knowledge about how to navigate changes.
Speaker A:In life and in career.
Speaker B:And we're going through this, all these changes in the world, like for people on the personal level, but also in organizations and everything.
Speaker B:So you fit right into that category of great helpers.
Speaker B:I think so, for sure, yeah.
Speaker B:And I would love to start with your own background because you have this really interesting journey yourself.
Speaker B:I think so.
Speaker B:Could you just share a little bit about that before we dive into all the meat?
Speaker C:Sure, yeah.
Speaker C:I have had what I would call a nonlinear career.
Speaker C:I like to say I'm like the Madonna of, you know, professional, professional women.
Speaker C:I feel like I've reinvented myself a couple of times as, as I have evolved as a human and as my interest and my knowledge has evolved, I've also evolved professionally.
Speaker C:So I'm a political scientist by training and when I was studying, I thought I would go, you know, work at the UN or something like that and just do that type of really international work which fit in with my personal background.
Speaker C:And I very quickly saw that that type of environment would not be for me.
Speaker C:I'm kind of somebody who's unorthodox and I don't like to follow the way things are done before and I don't like hierarchy.
Speaker C:I have a hard time with, like, this is the way we've always done Things, and now you got to keep doing it this way, right?
Speaker C:So I went to work in public health and international development, and I worked in various countries of Latin America, Africa, doing public health programs of all kind, right?
Speaker C:So it was a lot of strategic planning, implementation, program management, that sort of thing, and a lot of liaising with nonprofits and ministries of health and policymakers.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:All the aim of this work that we were doing was always to influence policy.
Speaker C:So that was a really great first part of my career, almost a decade.
Speaker C:And one of the things that struck me when I was doing that work was that poor leadership is everywhere in the world.
Speaker C:It doesn't matter if you are a minister of health in a really high position.
Speaker C:It doesn't matter if you are on, you know, the CEO of a company in New York.
Speaker C:It doesn't matter if you are working in customs in Ethiopia.
Speaker C:Like, I just saw bad leadership everywhere.
Speaker C:And as I got more interested in that, because I was also trying to be a good leader for my teams, right?
Speaker C:And back then, you know, 15 years ago, when I was doing this work, there was no budget for me to get coaching when I was, you know, a director of a department or anything like that.
Speaker C:So I was investing my own money and my own time to become a better leader.
Speaker C:And I'm looking around me and going, oh, these positions, these people in high positions don't know how to be leaders because it's really hard.
Speaker C:And I learned and understood that the reason why people in positions of leadership are crappy leaders is not because they're bad people or they don't care.
Speaker C:It's because they never learn.
Speaker C:Learned the tools.
Speaker C:You and I going to school, we probably didn't get a lot of education on emotional intelligence.
Speaker C:Learning to understand yourself, learning to understand how other people function, learning to understand how psychology impacts all of us when we interact with one another.
Speaker C:Just these principles for how to be with others in a way that is effective and grounded and emotionally intelligent.
Speaker C:So that is how I came to coaching from that first career.
Speaker C:Being really disappointed with, just kind of realizing that bad leadership is everywhere.
Speaker C:It's not anybody's fault.
Speaker C:But if people learn the tools, then it becomes much easier.
Speaker C:It's something that you can learn.
Speaker C:Just like if you're an engineer and you went to school to become an engineer, like, you can learn leadership skills.
Speaker C:You can learn emotional intelligence applied to your leadership, and these are trainable skills.
Speaker C:And that's when I made the decision as about 12 years ago, I made the decision to go back to school so I could you know, do a full program in executive coaching to become a certified coach.
Speaker C:And I decided that this was going to be my mission from here on, that I wanted to bring the skills, these trainable skills to people who are in leadership positions, who are doing important things in our world, who have a beautiful mission.
Speaker C:They're very smart, they're very, they have good technical skill, but boy, do they struggle at leading humans.
Speaker C:So that became my mission and that's what I've been up to for the past decade.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So I also, I read that you, you, that was also on your LinkedIn profile.
Speaker B:I think you are a strategic advisor to those building a better world.
Speaker B:So again, spot on.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So what, tell us about those kind, what kind of people is it that you work with mainly?
Speaker C:Sure.
Speaker C:So I mainly work with founders and CEOs or CXOs, you know, CEOs, CTOs, also a lot of CTOs, just a lot of engineers who are building solutions for our planet.
Speaker C:And I'm talking about health care and climate solutions mostly just because these are areas that are very close to my heart and that I have knowledge in.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:Because I don't just want to come in and coach my clients on leadership skills and emotional intelligence at work and psych, you know, business psychology, I also work on strategic items with them.
Speaker C:And if I have, you know, I have my public health background and I've worked with climate climate initiatives for a very long time, so I've been very steeped in this topic.
Speaker C:I want to be able to also work on strategic pieces with my clients.
Speaker C:So it's not just coaching, it's really advising also, you know, if there is a particular business problem that they're having, I want to be able to do it in a way that's coming from a knowledgeable place.
Speaker C:So I wouldn't advise someone, you know, in a topic that I don't really have much knowledge on, even though if I was doing pure coaching, you don't really need to have the subject matter expertise.
Speaker C:But because I do coaching and advising, strategic advising, I focus on the areas, the, the areas that I know about, which is health and climate.
Speaker B:Yeah, I like that.
Speaker B:I. Yeah.
Speaker B:Because sometimes I feel that coaching is.
Speaker B:What do you think about it when you're like.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So I, I love it when the, when the, the coaching also is, it's a bit of both, both advice, advisory and using the coaching techniques.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:And I'm actually a bad, you know, quote unquote bad coach.
Speaker C:Because when you are a pure coach, like when I graduated from my coaching school, et cetera.
Speaker C:One of the things that they really test you on is making sure that you are just coaching when you're coaching and you are letting the client come to their own answer.
Speaker C:But I find that if you really want to be helpful to somebody, you have to be able to also have an opinion.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And you have to be able to be a thought partner for them.
Speaker C:I think that's what my clients appreciate most about me, is they know they have a true thought partner in me.
Speaker C:And I always tell them, I say, if I think you're about to do something stupid, I'm gonna tell you, you know, I'm not gonna just sit there and be like, oh, if that's what you think, you know, go for it.
Speaker C:You have your solution.
Speaker C:So I think it's important that when you're advice, especially people that are at the founder, CEO level, that you have something to say and that you can be a counterweight to where they're going with certain things.
Speaker C:Because what happens with, you know, they call it the Ivory tower.
Speaker C:What happens with CEOs is they tend to kind of become closed into a bubble where they have a lot of people telling them yes.
Speaker C:They have few people challenging them.
Speaker C:They have their board, obviously the board can be, can play that role.
Speaker C:But the, the people on the board, they're not full time employees and they're not paying attention to every detail like they have other things.
Speaker C:They're on seven other boards.
Speaker C:So it may not be, you may not have, when you're CEO, you may not have people around you who are really paying attention, close attention to kind of your every move and how you're going about things to say, we, you need to do something different here.
Speaker C:This isn't really working right.
Speaker C:So that ivory tower syndrome is really real.
Speaker C:And I think for CEOs it is priceless to have somebody who is on your side, who has no agenda other than helping you become the best of the best and who's going to tell you the things that you need to hear that nobody else may be telling you.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:So looking at where you used to live in the US you lived in.
Speaker A:California, did you say?
Speaker C:Yeah, yes, we lived in California.
Speaker C:And Santa Cruz.
Speaker C:Santa Cruz, the Silicon Valley beach.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Sounds really nice.
Speaker B:But looking at that and the situation in the US and me only watching from a distance, of course, but we hear about all these massive layoffs and people losing their jobs a lot in government jobs perhaps, but also in other organizations and maybe nonprofits, organizations relying on funding, etc, etc.
Speaker B:So how do you see that affecting both the leaders, but also the employees in this situation where they have to go through this and it's, I guess, unexpected to a degree.
Speaker B:It comes like a tsunami.
Speaker B:And how do you see it affecting people?
Speaker C:Yeah, for sure, this situation that we're in right now is in the United States, but that is impacting the whole world is definitely a tsunami because I don't think people in business were expecting that the White House would be taking decisions that are for now at least, seeming anti growth and anti anti business, essentially.
Speaker C:So it definitely has felt like a tsunami because I think even people who supported the current president did not know that this was going to turn out this way.
Speaker C:So there's a huge shock, there's a sense of panic for some people and the way that I'm seeing it with the people that I'm supporting.
Speaker C:So we have the CEOs that have entered what I call the wartime CEO mode.
Speaker C:And so it's like really intense.
Speaker C:They themselves are pulling in really long hours, they're having really intense weeks.
Speaker C:They're trying to find funding wherever they can.
Speaker D:Right?
Speaker C:Like the funding that if they're raising a round of funding, maybe it's coming in later, it's being delayed.
Speaker C: not expected in the plan for: Speaker C:So there's that.
Speaker C:So these CEOs are going into wartime mode.
Speaker C:And that looks not very pretty again, because none of us were taught growing up how to manage our internal psychology when we get triggered and when we're under stress.
Speaker C:So, so there's, I'm seeing a lot of bad behaviors both, you know, at the personal level and like, they're not eating well, they're not sleeping, they've stopped exercising.
Speaker C:They're just so stressed out and so amped up about, I gotta, I gotta keep this company afloat.
Speaker C:And I understand it's coming from a place of wanting to save the company, right?
Speaker C:Like there, there are real stakes here.
Speaker C:Where that becomes a problem is when that starts to bleed into how they're showing up for their companies, for their employees, for the people around them.
Speaker C:Because I have to constantly remind my clients, you're the CEO, this company is your baby.
Speaker C:But your employees, they are not thinking about this company the same way that you are.
Speaker C:They are thinking about, I need to have a paycheck to feed my family, I need to still be able to get out at a decent hour so that I can have my life, etc.
Speaker D:Etc.
Speaker C:So there's this disconnect where we have the leaders who are really working hard to get the company ahead, who have this, I would say, nervous and stressful, stressed out energy.
Speaker C:It's bleeding into their employees and it comes out sometimes as not great behaviors, like, you know, saying things that you shouldn't be saying, having reactions that are just not taken well by people around you.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So the employees also are feeling this.
Speaker C:And so a lot of the work that I'm doing with clients right now is helping these CEOs, these founders, these CxOs, to manage their internal stuff, to really get clear on what the priorities are so that they can lower the temperature a bit.
Speaker C:It's like, okay, this is a stressful time, but it doesn't mean that you need to become a crazy person because that's not going to help your employees.
Speaker C:You are panicking them right now, right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I help them work on what I call the three C's.
Speaker C:This is a framework that I use during transitions and pivot points and tricky times in life.
Speaker C:So the three Cs is clarity, curiosity and courage.
Speaker C:And I'll explain what those are.
Speaker C:So clarity.
Speaker C:And it's always number one.
Speaker C:You know, when I'm coaching someone in a session, I say, okay, let's do a brain dump of all the things that are occupying your, your mind right now.
Speaker C:All of the problems.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:Give me like the two minutes of like, I call it word vomit, you know, and then the clarity.
Speaker C:The first thing that we're going to do is we're going to get clear on what truly matters here, what truly needs to be addressed.
Speaker C:What is a fire that looks really, you know, urgent and whatnot, but it, it actually isn't.
Speaker C:And what is the one or two things that you just need to put your energy and your focus towards and everything else is just noise.
Speaker C:So let's get clear on what you need to be working on.
Speaker C:That's number one.
Speaker C:Number two is we're going to work on curiosity.
Speaker C:What I mean by that is look at how you're, what is your strategy right now?
Speaker C:Let's get curious about what's not working.
Speaker C:What could you be doing differently?
Speaker C:What do you need to stop doing because it's a waste of time, right?
Speaker C:Let's get curious about how you're going about things and how you could improve that.
Speaker C:Curious also means sometimes reaching out to people.
Speaker C:I have so many instances of me saying to a leader, who could you reach out to right now who would be better at solving this problem than you?
Speaker C:And they Go.
Speaker C:Oh, my gosh, I can't believe I didn't think of this before.
Speaker C:Of course.
Speaker C:Yeah, I'm gonna have Jen work on this.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:Like, of course I can take this off my plate.
Speaker C:So that's the curiosity piece.
Speaker C:It's, look at what you're doing and where could you be making changes and tweaks to have things work better.
Speaker C:And number three is the courage.
Speaker C:It's the courage to say the things that you need to say.
Speaker C:It's the courage to maybe get.
Speaker C:Deliver some not so great news to your board.
Speaker C:It's the courage to have to do something different.
Speaker C:It's the courage to maybe go in a different direction than you thought you were going.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So maybe looking wrong.
Speaker C:The courage to look wrong.
Speaker C:Like, you made a wrong choice before and you're changing, you're pivoting.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:The courage to accept that things don't always work out the way you had planned, and you need to come up with something different.
Speaker C:So those are the three pieces that I work on with these leaders to help them be the leaders that their people need them to be during a really tough time when there's insecurity, there's volatility, and, like, what I tell my clients is you're feeling a certain way, and your job right now is to minimize the intensity of the feelings for your people.
Speaker C:You want to create an environment even though you're stressed out and even though there's a lot on your shoulders.
Speaker C:You want to let your people know what's happening.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:You want to be real with them, but without the panic and without the stress.
Speaker C:Yeah, because that's not going to help anybody.
Speaker C:And that is a really hard thing for my clients to do.
Speaker C:And they need help with that.
Speaker C:And I'm very glad that they allow me to do.
Speaker C:To help them do that, because it makes a huge difference in how they show up.
Speaker B:That must be a big challenge.
Speaker B:And I have.
Speaker B:Oh, I have so many questions popping up now, but first thing was that I can imagine if you're leading a company with a big purpose, let's say you're working on clean water, for instance, or something.
Speaker B:You have this big mission.
Speaker B:You're mission driven also as a leader, and your employees are.
Speaker B:You have this big.
Speaker D:Why?
Speaker B:And then suddenly you have all these challenges that are kind of just like it's noise, but you have to fix them.
Speaker B:How do they.
Speaker B:Or how do you help them manage to kind of hold on to the purpose at the same time as they have to manage all this noise?
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, purpose is such a wonderful thing because it will carry you far.
Speaker C:If you are leading a company that you believe in the mission and you believe that you accomplishing what you set out to do is important for the planet, it's important for our society.
Speaker C:You are going to have more resilience to work on what you're doing.
Speaker C:So that's, that's one thing.
Speaker C:It's true that when we get under stress, we can lose sight of the purpose.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So it's important to keep in mind the purpose, to have that motivation.
Speaker C:But it's also okay if some days you wake up and you're not thinking about your purpose, but you're like, how do I.
Speaker C:How do I get this funding to happen by our deadline?
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So it's balancing.
Speaker C:I would say it's balancing a lot of things together at the same time and knowing that it's okay to have to focus your energy on just making sure that the company stays afloat while still staying powered and fueled by that mission.
Speaker C:But it's all happening at the same time.
Speaker C:It's a lot.
Speaker C:And that's understandable.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And also the fact that we're dealing with people.
Speaker B:So now if I'm flipping it, then to the employees, people who are facing losing their job or risking losing their job.
Speaker B:I've been in that situation myself where we, we kind of walked around for a year, really nervous, everybody, like, who's next?
Speaker B:You know, this is a really, really stressful situation.
Speaker B:What is the best way to deal with this as a, as an employee who are not used to being in this really insecure position?
Speaker B:And how do you maybe become resilient for these changes, that maybe they're happening more and more often?
Speaker B:And, and in, in the US it's been happening for a lot of people at the same time lately.
Speaker D:Sure.
Speaker D:Yeah.
Speaker C:Tens of thousands of people being affected in just a few months.
Speaker C:It's is really unprecedented.
Speaker C:I mean, I've.
Speaker C:I've never heard of a situation where this many people were affected on this scale.
Speaker C:So I think it's new for everybody.
Speaker C:But there are some things that remain true.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:Even, Even if this is a situation that we haven't seen in a very long time, there are some things that remain true, such as each of us is responsible for managing our own internal psychology.
Speaker C:Even as an employee, even if you feel like you're quote, unquote, at the mercy of this job where you may get fired tomorrow or next week or two months from now, the reality is nothing is guaranteed in life.
Speaker C:And I think remembering that Remembering that, you know, I. I'm alive today, but that, that may be a miracle, right?
Speaker C:Like anything that we have today is not something that may be guaranteed tomorrow.
Speaker C:So that's number one.
Speaker C:It's just remembering that's life.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's just so unpredictable and it's not something to make it like, oh, it's wrong or it's horrible, but it's just the nature of life.
Speaker C:And I think when we can think of it that way, like not life has ebbs and fl.
Speaker C:And that's just what happens.
Speaker C:But there are some things that remain true, which is if you as an employee are worried about losing your job, et cetera, I would say work on all of these personal practices that are going to help you focus on what you can control.
Speaker C:I think that is the main thing.
Speaker C:Focus on what you can control.
Speaker C:What does that mean?
Speaker C:You may have your head full of thoughts and fears and apprehensions about what's going on, but I guarantee you that 90% of those things that you are worried about and thinking about at night, 90% of those you actually don't have control over.
Speaker C:So find what is the 10% of things that you do have control over and focus your energy on that.
Speaker C:And I know that's hard to do because we are emotional creatures and we have a very complex and nervous systems that get triggered and we feel all sorts of emotional and physical things under stress.
Speaker C:And it doesn't mean that we have to be at the mercy of our mind, our thoughts, our fears.
Speaker C:There are practices that each of us can do to help us stay sane.
Speaker C:So what are some of those things?
Speaker C:I mean, I'm sure people already do many of these, but I'm just going to list off some of them.
Speaker B:If.
Speaker C:You find that exercise helps you.
Speaker C:At least for me it does.
Speaker C:When I feel out of control, like my mind is spinning and the world is out of control.
Speaker C:I gotta tell you, right now, I'm in the best shape of my life in a long time because the world is crazy.
Speaker C:So I'm like yoga seven days a week and I started working out with the trainer.
Speaker C:And like, for me, exercise is a way to kind of purge all of that nervous energy, right?
Speaker C:Because you got to work on the physical, mental, emotional, spiritual level.
Speaker C:So if exercising works for you, exercise, take care of your body, purge that, that nervous energy.
Speaker C:If you have a creative outlet, this is the time to allow yourself to focus on that.
Speaker C:Focus on your family, the people you love, what is nourishing to you, and how can you nourish Others, because again, coming back to what we can control our mind is like a dog with a bone.
Speaker C:And you know when a dog gets on that bone and he's just like so focused on it.
Speaker C:And you can give your mind any bone you want to give it.
Speaker C:So it can be like a rotting bone that it found in a corner that had been sitting there for five days, or you can give it a nice fresh bone.
Speaker C:And if you say, huh, I'm going to turn my attention to my creative outlet, to exercising, to being there for my friends, checking in on my loved ones, making time to see the people that I care about and being there for them.
Speaker C:It's like you are giving your mind another thought thing to focus on.
Speaker C:You are feeding your mind what to focus on.
Speaker C:You are controlling where your mind is going to give its attention to, as opposed to just letting the world come at you.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And having that control your thoughts.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So there's so much power in knowing, hey, I am the captain of my own ship and I can give my mind the things that I wanted to focus on right now.
Speaker C:Like if you like dancing, go dancing.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:Like, I have dance parties in my living room all the time when I'm feeling stressed out or like when the girls come home from school after a day of work of having these conversations.
Speaker C:You know, it's just finding the things that are going to help you manage.
Speaker C:Your mind, your spirit, your, your, your body, like for how your body is taking in stress.
Speaker C:I think those practices for anybody who's going through uncertainty right now are so, so helpful.
Speaker B:Do you think maybe that also challenges like this can make you, can you see them as a, an opportunity for growth as well?
Speaker B:And I then I think both as a leader, as a company like the organization, but also as an employee that, like when you mentioned being in the best shape of your life because of all the challenges, but you can get new habits.
Speaker B:You can, if you are laid off, maybe you find something which is actually a lot better.
Speaker B:How do you see, do you have any kind of success stories about how big problems can lead to massive growth as well?
Speaker C:Oh, for sure.
Speaker C:I mean, there are nothing.
Speaker C:But, you know, I've been a coach for 10 years, so I've seen a lot of people become very successful with their companies, but I've also seen people close their companies.
Speaker C:I've also seen people, you know, not accomplish what they set out to do.
Speaker C:So I, I mean, there's, there's nothing but growth on the other side of that.
Speaker C:And one of the things that is really it's really striking to me.
Speaker C:What.
Speaker C:Regarding what happens to people after they go through a really tough time like this and they come out victorious on the other side, because, let's face, most people do.
Speaker C:Like, we just can't see it when we're there.
Speaker C:But I see people becoming more resilient.
Speaker C:And guess what?
Speaker C:The next time you face something that is tough and challenging and scary and all of that, you are much better suited to deal with it.
Speaker C:I mean, I've seen it in my own life because I've had, you know, a handful of really challenging situations to go through, and the first one was terrifying, but the second time it was easier.
Speaker C:The third time it got easier.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So one is resilience.
Speaker C:Like, you become so much better at navigating uncertainty and changes and shocks to your life, which makes you feel like.
Speaker C:Like a super person, you know, like.
Speaker C:And number two, what I have seen also in my experience of doing this for a decade now, is that after something like this, after a big shock to your life or a big change to your life, that at first.
Speaker C:First seems like your life is over, so to speak.
Speaker C:Even from divorce, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:I mean, and I saw it in my own divorce from my first husband and.
Speaker C:And in other people in my life who have gone through this after a big upheaval.
Speaker C:You actually discovered new facets of yourself because it teaches you to get creative about how to get by.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:If you.
Speaker C:I've been laid off.
Speaker C:I've been laid off from a job, and I had to ask myself some serious questions about was that actually the best job for me?
Speaker C:Was that actually the best?
Speaker C:It wasn't.
Speaker C:You know, there were lots of things that I wasn't so happy with.
Speaker C:So it led to me discovering new facets of myself, new interests, new evolutions in myself and in myself as a professional.
Speaker C:So the second thing is, yeah, you discover new facets, new abilities, new interests, because guess what?
Speaker C:If you've been in that job for a long time, chances are you're a different person, too.
Speaker C:You just didn't realize it.
Speaker C:And the third thing I. I would say that you can get from this, that I've seen people eventually end up with, is there's a sense of freedom.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:It's like, oh, I thought that this thing that I was so afraid of losing was the be all and end all to my life.
Speaker C:And it turns out that when I let it go, or I was made to let go of it, you know, by force, I realized that I don't need it.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Or it wasn't the everything in my life.
Speaker C:And there's such a freedom to say, I am not defined by that job.
Speaker C:I'm not defined by that position.
Speaker C:I am not defined by that marriage.
Speaker C:I am not defined by that thing I used to be or I used to do.
Speaker C:And that freedom is beautiful.
Speaker C:So for those of you who are out there, you know, kind of going through something like this right now, and I know how scary it is, and I know the uncertainty and the feelings that come with it that are very uncomfortable right now, just know that you are exactly where you need to be.
Speaker C:Take the steps to take care of yourself in this time.
Speaker C:And know that on the other side, there's resilience, there's freedom, there's discovering new facets of yourself.
Speaker C:There's something really beautiful waiting for you.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, I so agree with that.
Speaker B:And you said defining what you define yourself as.
Speaker B:And I.
Speaker B:One thing that I come back to again and again is identity.
Speaker B:Like the identity you have with your profession, your career, your title.
Speaker B:And I saw that as maybe the biggest challenge for myself when I made a pivot in my career, that it was so hard to let go of that identity.
Speaker B:How.
Speaker B:How do you.
Speaker B:What is the best way to deal with that, you think?
Speaker B:Because it's about letting go of that.
Speaker B:And, and as you said, exactly that freedom that comes when you manage to let go of that identity, that is huge.
Speaker B:But it's really hard, I think.
Speaker C:Yeah, totally.
Speaker C:And the thing is, we have.
Speaker C:We have misunderstood what our identity is.
Speaker C:And identity.
Speaker C:We have to understand that it's just a label, like a sticky, like a little sticker that you can put on something one day and take it off the next.
Speaker C:But we come to take it so seriously, we get so wrapped up in our identity that we start to believe that that is, in fact what we are.
Speaker C:And when I talk with people about identity, I like to talk with them about the alternative to think about when it comes to yourself, which is what is your essence?
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:Because your identity is like, you know, managing director of this firm or whatever.
Speaker C:Like, that's just a label that you.
Speaker C:You could take off tomorrow and you could be something else.
Speaker C:But what is your essence?
Speaker C:Oh, your essence is of being someone who is mission driven.
Speaker C:Your essence is of someone who cares about your fellow human beings.
Speaker C:Your essence is someone who is committed to becoming the best, the best person you can be.
Speaker C:Your essence is someone who is a loving parent.
Speaker C:Your essence is someone who has a purpose that is coming from their heart.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:And when you talk about your essence Then you can be any different number of labels if you're really focused on your essence.
Speaker C:But that is the type of work that most people haven't done.
Speaker C:We've been told that once you have an identity, once you have a label, that is who you are.
Speaker C:Yes, but it's not just like personality.
Speaker C:I listened to this fascinating podcast.
Speaker C:This is a few years ago, maybe five or six years ago, where they talked about personality, and they were interviewing people in the street and asking them about their personality and their part, you know, their life partner's personality.
Speaker C:And then they go into this podcast with people who are studying personality and the formation of personality and what it is.
Speaker C:And it turns out personality isn't something even you're born with.
Speaker C:Personality is a construct.
Speaker C:It's a construct that happened once you were born in a certain environment and you were told certain messages and you were like taught certain mindsets.
Speaker C:And so, I mean, imagine the freedom to be when you realize that you.
Speaker C:What you think is your personality, this very set in stone thing.
Speaker C:Imagine the freedom when you go, oh, that's actually just a construct that happened because of all these factors that I was in.
Speaker C:And if I change the factors that I put myself in, if I change who I hang out with, if I change my thoughts, if I change my context, then I could have a different personality.
Speaker D:Yeah, right.
Speaker C:So this is sort of.
Speaker C:And personality and identity are very tied, right?
Speaker C:Personality is like the personal side of your identity.
Speaker C:And your identity is like what you kind of present to the world and who you are at work and your labels and your roles and.
Speaker C:But I really always like to think about that when I'm thinking about identity, I like to think back to it's a social construct, it's a label.
Speaker C:And just like personality, it's more like about the confluence of factors that were happening at that time when you adopted that identity.
Speaker C:And you can allow yourself to think of what other identity you could take on because they're interchangeable.
Speaker C:It's a label.
Speaker C:You could change it.
Speaker B:I got really curious about something now because yesterday I had another guest on the podcast and we started talking about extroversion and introversion.
Speaker B:This is a bit on the side of the topic now, but.
Speaker B:But just because it was this story on the, on the news in Norway this week about this guy who had applied for all these jobs and he didn't get past like the.
Speaker B:The first interview because he was so introverted.
Speaker B:And I've been thinking a lot about this because I sometimes when I do these tests, you know, I end up as leaning towards the introverted side.
Speaker B:But in some situation I feel I'm.
Speaker B:I'm not very like the opposite, but I'm more in the middle.
Speaker B:So it's a very.
Speaker B:It, it depends on the situation and the context and the people and everything.
Speaker B:So do you think this is also like, what do you think about extroversion and introversion actually?
Speaker B:Is that also something that you can change or are you born with it or how is that, do you think?
Speaker C:You know, I don't know, but it's a topic that I love.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Because when I was growing up, being introverted versus extroverted had a very different meaning, right.
Speaker C:Like if you were introvert, you were shy, you didn't like people, you were.
Speaker C:Even people would say like, oh, if you're introverted it means you're insecure about yourself.
Speaker C:And if you were extroverted, it meant you were confident and it meant that you felt good about yourself and it meant that you liked people and if you were introverted, you didn't like people.
Speaker C:And that's all been scratched and scrapped.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:With the new definition of introversion and extroversion, which is, it's like the system of chips, you know, like the introvert.
Speaker C:Because I'm very similar to you, Vish Le Moy, because I'm also somebody who is, I think, at nature, at heart, an introvert and.
Speaker C:But I'm also very extroverted and I'm also very comfortable with people and I love people.
Speaker C:Obviously my job is, is a people job.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:But the way that it resonates for me, the introvert versus extrovert, is that for introverts at least this, this resonates for me.
Speaker C:I feel like I start off my day, each day with 10 chips, 10 social chips.
Speaker C:And every time I have an interaction with someone, I spend a quarter of a chip or, you know, if it's an intense interaction with somebody, like a lot of talking and a lot of depth to the conversation, then it's going to be two chips for that conversation that I spent.
Speaker C:And then some days I get to 6pm and the kids are home and we're getting dinner ready and I look at my husband and I go, I just realized I've spent all my 10 chips for that.
Speaker C:Like, I have nothing.
Speaker C:I have nothing left in the tank and I still have to get through the next two, three hours to put the kids to bed, right?
Speaker C:And I just feel really tired and drained and I feel like now at this moment I want to start withdrawing in towards myself.
Speaker C:I have Less energy to interact with my children or less energy to interact with my husband.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So it's like that awareness of how much you have left in your social tank.
Speaker C:And I don't know, I mean, for me, the.
Speaker C:The feeling that I get when I'm done with my chips for the day, it's like if I'm at a party, I have to leave the party.
Speaker C:Like, I'm done, you know, Like, I gotta go home and I gotta be in my cave for the next one and a half days.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So for me, it feels very real and very, like, physical almost.
Speaker C:But is it something we're born with?
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:Maybe I became an introvert because I lived in a household that was.
Speaker C:Had way too much going on.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, and I just.
Speaker C:Me being an introvert is, like, the response to that.
Speaker C:It's hard to know if it's from birth or not.
Speaker C:But I think the important thing, whether it's something that's, you know, in.
Speaker C:Ingrained in you or not, or innate or not, I think the important thing is to, again, really know yourself.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:Like, do that work of understanding.
Speaker C:Are you more on the introvert or the extrovert side?
Speaker C:What does it mean when you start to feel drained and you're in a conversation with somebody at a party and you're feeling that feeling of like, I gotta go now.
Speaker C:Like, learn to understand what that means about you.
Speaker C:Learn to work with it and also learn to be okay with that.
Speaker C:Like, when I was younger, I would force myself to say, oh, because it's rude.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:I don't want to look weird now.
Speaker C:I don't care.
Speaker C:I'm done.
Speaker C:I'm done.
Speaker C:I'm going home.
Speaker C:You know, like, it's been great.
Speaker B:See ya.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Oh, I can.
Speaker B:I love that way of thinking about it with the chips.
Speaker B:I'm going to use that.
Speaker B:And I can totally relate to what you explained with the, like, the party.
Speaker B:You just have to leave if you're empty.
Speaker B:I'm exactly the same.
Speaker B:Oh, that's.
Speaker C:We're similar in that way.
Speaker B:Yes, I think so.
Speaker B:So that was a little bit of a sidestep.
Speaker B:But going back to the.
Speaker B:Just before we wrap up, because I'm very, very interested in the identity shifts and I'm trying all the time to almost, no matter who I talk to, to relate it a little bit back to my old industry, which is oil and gas and like, that big transition.
Speaker B:And like, one category of people that I'm especially interested in are the ones who are a bit, like, I Was who can say that I know that I want out or I know that I want to shift a switch, but I have no idea what's next.
Speaker B:And that I think could relate to both an employee like I was or a leader even of a company who they have this nagging feeling that this is not what I'm supposed to be doing.
Speaker B:I'm done.
Speaker B:Yes, but, but where to go, what to do and how to make that is a huge shift.
Speaker B:And especially if you don't get that kick in the butt like I did, because then I didn't have a choice.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:So, yeah, how would you approach that?
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, I've been lucky to go through my own transitions and also support a few people and in this coaching work in those types of transitions.
Speaker C:And the first thing I would say is to know that it's normal to feel that way because obviously your identity and your habits and your daily life has been so wrapped up in this thing for a long time that it's normal to feel apprehension and to go, I don't even know what would happen next.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So it's normal to be feeling that way and to be feeling apprehension.
Speaker C:But the fact that you're having that nagging feeling that something has to change is telling you that something has to change.
Speaker C:So when you don't know, I think there's, there's a few things that help.
Speaker C:One is fine.
Speaker C:I mean, we're so lucky to be living in this time of technology and access to education.
Speaker C:I would say the first thing is go ahead and inform and educate yourself on the things that are piquing your interest that you think you might want to explore.
Speaker C:Like, you can't be in a rush with this kind of thing.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:Take some time, take some, you know, online courses on these topics that you think you may be interested in.
Speaker C:So that's one.
Speaker C:Inform yourself, educate yourself.
Speaker C:Number two, I think is probably the most important.
Speaker C:Talk to people who are doing that thing that you think you might want to do.
Speaker C:Invite them to have, you know, an informational coffee and buy them lunch or what have you to learn really what it's like to be in that role or in that field or in that thing that you're interested in and ask them some good questions.
Speaker C:So this is the thing.
Speaker C:It's not just, you know, going and meeting with them, but really steer the conversation and ask them some pointed questions like what do you hate about this job or this field?
Speaker C:What do you wish you knew before you went to work for this field that you wish somebody had Told you because it might have changed your opinion of it.
Speaker C:What is the, what are the biggest challenges or your biggest headaches doing this job?
Speaker C:And then what do you love about it?
Speaker C:What's satisfying about it?
Speaker C:How do you keep it interesting and fun?
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:Because you also want something that is going to make you feel alive.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So I think that having those conversations with people who are there and asking them some really good pointed questions that are going to get you some useful data is the most key thing.
Speaker C:And you would be surprised how willing people are to talk with you.
Speaker C:When I was thinking about leaving Global Health, Public Health, International Development to go work as a coach, even, you know, I think this is, even before I started my coaching program, I met with people who were already coaching and had built their coaching businesses to ask them all these questions.
Speaker C:So I could really be sure that this is something that fits me and who I am.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So you're going to ask questions that are, that are relevant to you and how you're built and what you need in life to be happy.
Speaker C:So there's a bit of internal work to do also before you have these interviews with people, these conversations with people, because you want to do a little bit of searching and internal seeking to think about.
Speaker C:Okay, what are the things that energize me in this life?
Speaker C:What are the things that I find really boring?
Speaker C:Like for instance, for me, I know that I don't like to maintain something that's already established.
Speaker C:I like a new challenge and I like to solve a new problem.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So you need to know those things about yourself.
Speaker C:So what are the things I find boring?
Speaker C:Do I like to work in an environment that is like very fast paced and there's a lot going on all the time, or do I like to be left alone to work on a problem on my own?
Speaker C:Or do I like a mix of both?
Speaker C:Right, so you need to really ask yourself some of these questions based on your previous experiences.
Speaker C:Again, nothing is ever lost.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:So even all those previous experiences, even if there's parts of it that you didn't like, this is all very good data to tell you what you're looking for in the ideal next step of your life and then have those conversations with people and you'll be surprised how, how informative and how just how illustrative they are for how that could work in your own life.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yes, I think this is great.
Speaker B:And, and I think to end this, how, how would you say that you work with climate, you work with health issues, you see all the big chaotic changes happening if we were to see something positive coming out of every big changes.
Speaker B:Do you see any kind of trends these days showing us that maybe we are at the turning point that things are.
Speaker B:Is there an opportunity again for growth in all these challenges?
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:And now I'm thinking about the big picture.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:One big thing that I'm thinking about right now in all this political, economic, societal turmoil that we're in is a realization that what we have built up until now, the way that we have built up our world economy, our political systems, our societal and collective structures and agreements are not standing in the face of upheaval and turmoil.
Speaker C:So they're like, so to speak, they're either outdated systems or they are weak.
Speaker C:We didn't build them to withstand big shifts.
Speaker C:And that is good information.
Speaker C:I think it's time for things to change.
Speaker C:I think it's time for new models and new ways of building what we build.
Speaker C:So for me the positive point is, okay, we're going to be in for a rough ride people.
Speaker C:And I don't think it's, it's ending in the next few months.
Speaker C:I think we're in this for at least a couple of years while the world integrates all of these shocks and goes holy crap.
Speaker C:Like we are not, we are not prepared for this and we got to come up with something new.
Speaker C:And coming up with something new doesn't happen overnight.
Speaker C:So get ready people.
Speaker C:Buckle your seatbelts, use your good practices to keep sane and grounded.
Speaker D:Right?
Speaker C:But I do think that what's coming on the other side of this is our rethinking and re rebuilding new ways of, of living and new systems, new world systems, right.
Speaker C:Both macro and micro new world systems for how we do life as humans on this planet.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, I think you're right and I, I hope you're right.
Speaker C:I hope so too.
Speaker C:And the thing is like people, we have to get to work.
Speaker C:Like this is not going to happen with us sitting at home and doom scrolling.
Speaker C:Like get involved, call your elected officials, get involved in your community, get involved at a bigger level.
Speaker C:But whatever you have to offer, time, energy, skill, get to work with that.
Speaker C:Because it's going to take all of us, right?
Speaker C:So it's going to take some work.
Speaker C:But I think that if we all put in the work, we can get to a place where we're creating new systems and new ways of living that are much, much more resilient and much better for the, the next chapter of humanity.
Speaker C:You know, I think we've outgrown We've outgrown the way we've been operating.
Speaker C:And the reason why we're seeing all these shocks is because actually, the systems that we were kind of working with weren't.
Speaker C:They weren't equal.
Speaker C:They weren't fair, they weren't.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker C:Like, let's not fool ourselves.
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So let's use this opportunity to direct.
Speaker C:Direct what's next towards something better.
Speaker C:Let's not sit here and just let the things fall apart.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So that's my.
Speaker C:That's my soapbox.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And I. I think that also everybody.
Speaker B:And stop thinking that someone has to fix this.
Speaker B:Someone is us.
Speaker B:Like everyone.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:No one's coming to save us.
Speaker B:No, exactly.
Speaker C:But ourselves.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So true.
Speaker B:Oh, this was so great.
Speaker B:And as I often say to my guests, I could have talked with you for hours.
Speaker B:It's so interesting, and I think so interesting topics.
Speaker B:But if people want to know more about what you do, maybe want to work with you, how can they find you?
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And also you have a podcast, so you have to.
Speaker B:You have to tell us about that as well.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:Thank you for the rhyme.
Speaker C:It's so funny.
Speaker C:I always forget to talk about my podcast.
Speaker B:Yeah, you should, because it's great.
Speaker C:Oh, thank you.
Speaker C:So my podcast is called Life by Intention with Silvana Rocher.
Speaker C:And you can find it on Apple, you know, podcasts on Spotify, all the main platforms.
Speaker C:You can find me on LinkedIn the easiest.
Speaker C:That is the best way to get in touch with me.
Speaker C:I am the only person with my first and last name, Silvana Roche.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker C:That I know of.
Speaker C:And lastly, I just want to say, Vishnemoy, thank you so much for such a wonderful and thoughtful conversation.
Speaker C:You're a great interviewer.
Speaker C:I loved your questions, and I learned something new talking with you today.
Speaker B:Good to hear, and it was lovely to have you as a guest.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:As I said, I loved chatting with you.
Speaker A:That was Silvana Rocher.
Speaker A:And I really hope you got as many lightbulb moments as I had.
Speaker A:You know, I already had the privilege of listening to this twice as I have been editing the episode after doing the interview.
Speaker A:But you can do that, too.
Speaker A:Rewind, take some notes, and see where in your life you can use some of this knowledge.
Speaker A:If this conversation resonated with you, please consider sharing it with someone navigating their own leadership journey or life pivot right now.
Speaker A:You never know the difference it might make.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker A:And if you'd like to hear more episodes or explore the other work that I do, head over to wiklavonese.substack.com or storiesforthefuture.com that's where the heart of this podcast lives and where you'll find more tools, reflections and stories for building a better future.
Speaker A:And a special thank you to Creative Space for supporting this episode.
Speaker A:This incredible community of coaches, creatives and solopreneurs has been such a meaningful part of my own journey and a beautiful reminder that we don't have to build alone.
Speaker A:Until next time, keep leading, keep listening, and stay curious and keep writing those stories for the future.
