Episode 95
How to Attract Your Next Job – Not Chase It, with Keith Anderson from Career Alchemy
🔍 Episode Summary:
What if job hunting wasn’t the answer?
In this episode, Keith Anderson from Career Alchemy shares how to stop searching and start being found, even in a tough job market. We talk about back-channeling, personal branding, storytelling, and how to build long-term career resilience in an AI-shifting landscape.
🔗 Links & Resources:
- 💼 Connect with Keith: Career Alchemy and LinkedIn
📣 Stay Connected:
Follow along on Substack or visit the website for tools, reflections, and upcoming episodes.
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Mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Hello and welcome back to another episode.
Speaker A:I have what you might call a luxury problem.
Speaker A:With so many great conversations already recorded, choosing just one for this final episode before my short summer break was really challenging.
Speaker A:But I believe that guests that that I selected will give you the perfect boost heading into summer, especially if you're considering a career move or currently job hunting after leaving a previous position.
Speaker A:My guest today is Keith Anderson, a career transformation coach who went from working as an English teacher to leading in tech roles at companies like Google, Uber and Meta.
Speaker A:Now, through his business career alchemy, he helps others do the same, not just find a job, but attract one.
Speaker A:Keith's approach is a blend between storytelling, personal branding, and something he calls back channeling.
Speaker A:All designed to help you stand out even in a tough market.
Speaker A:And he doesn't just focus on your next job.
Speaker A:His mission is to help you build long term career resilience in a landscape that's shifting fast, especially now with AI changing the game.
Speaker A:So if you've been thinking about making a change or feeling out of sync with your current role, this episode is full of encouragement, perspective, and plenty of practical wisdom.
Speaker A:I would actually say that it goes really well with my own miniseries that I have been posting on Mondays lately, the Quiet Pivot.
Speaker A:Keith and I are really well aligned on so many things, so let's dive in.
Speaker A:Welcome to the podcast, Keith.
Speaker A:I'm so, so happy to have you here.
Speaker B:Me too.
Speaker B:I'm really excited to be talking with you and sharing my story and how I work with people with your listeners.
Speaker A:You call yourself a career alchemist.
Speaker A:So in this time where more and more people are facing insecurity in their professional lives for a number of reasons all over the world, but maybe especially where you are based in the U.S.
Speaker A:i think that you're a perfect guest to have on.
Speaker A:So maybe just to kind of jump straight into the meat of the potato.
Speaker A:Is that what we say?
Speaker B:The meat and the potatoes.
Speaker A:The meat and potatoes.
Speaker B:The meat and the potato.
Speaker B:I don't know if that's.
Speaker B:I haven't had that before, so I don't know if that's a bomb.
Speaker A:Okay, that's good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It says on your website it's time to stop searching for jobs and start to attract.
Speaker A:Start attracting them.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:What do you mean by that?
Speaker A:And in the same.
Speaker A:Go just tell us about your business.
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:So essentially the kind of traditional approach to a job search is apply to jobs online and pray and hope that the recruiter or someone reaches out and then be so grateful or thankful or Excited that they reach out.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And that's coming from a place of, you know, honestly, a strong word, but either desperation or not from a place of power.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So people, you know, if you think of it like a marketing funnel, right.
Speaker B:And we look at it from a bit more of that sense, really, it's about making yourself sticky.
Speaker B:What I call.
Speaker B:So your digital presence is really, you know, attracting people to you where they're not swiping left like on Tinder.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They're actually either shortlisting you or they're interested in learning more about you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And then from, then from there, it's about building out something I call back channeling, where you're not just going through that like typical apply and pray and hope.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But you're meeting people strategically in these companies that they're not the hiring manager, they're not the recruiter, but there's other people that are close to them who influence.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So once you do, once you start doing that, you start building authority and credibility with people in these companies.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So, you know, there's much more to it.
Speaker B:Of course, my, my background is in neuro linguistics.
Speaker B:So it's a very big focus on these tried and true scientifically proven approaches in applying them to that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So that's essentially the bread and butter of what this looks like.
Speaker B:And on average, the person I work with lands a role within 3.4 months.
Speaker B:And yes, now in the United States, as you said, the economy is shifting, the job market is shifting.
Speaker B:And that's still the case, though.
Speaker B:It, you know, my clients land roles within 3.4 months with a salary increase of 25,000.
Speaker B:So that is essentially what I mean by attracting a career versus just searching and hunting job hunt.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's not empowering.
Speaker B:And then my business career alchemy, really, I work a lot with people who have been in a career that might have been in alignment and something that they really enjoyed at one part of their life.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But now it's no longer in sync with who they are and who they're becoming.
Speaker B:So they're really looking for what that next stage of their career is.
Speaker B:Some people have breadcrumbs of what they want to do, others are completely new.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Trying to figure things out.
Speaker B:But like, at the end of the day, it's really taking where you're at now and something that can seem really all over the place in terms of switching industries or switching roles and take it.
Speaker B:For me, it was made really big career transitions and helped hundreds of people do this.
Speaker B:So you're not like doing it alone.
Speaker B:You're not doing it without confidence and doubting yourself.
Speaker B:You're able to do it seamlessly through building authentic connections with people so that in your top companies they become people who advocate for you.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Who are speaking positive of you in rooms you're not in.
Speaker B:Like, that's, these are the types of things that we're building.
Speaker B:And, and with career alchemy, a big piece of it too, once you find your magic potion, right, with that, you know, alchemy, your, your kind of uniqueness, essentially your element, you know, a big piece with that too is, you know, you're able to build connections with people that it's not really just focus on your next job or a job.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's about long term career growth.
Speaker B:You meet these people and it's setting you up towards that path.
Speaker B:And then, you know, landing this next job is a byproduct of that.
Speaker B:So that's essentially what it is.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:That was a lot of me speaking.
Speaker B:Any questions?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Now I, I gathered so many questions while we were speaking.
Speaker A:So, so first of all, I'm curious because I think I heard some, I hear a variety of statistics when it comes to this, but I think the last number I heard was something like 70% of the jobs go through networks.
Speaker A:So would you say when you work with people, would you say leave the, like the normal applications all together and just try to get to know people and network with people instead?
Speaker A:Or is it kind of a bit of both?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker B:So as you said that the number and the percentage kind of changes between 70 and 80% essentially are landed on what's called the hidden job market.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Which is a fancy way of what you just said in terms of landing roles through human connections you have with people.
Speaker B:So no, so similar to that, like 70 to 80% with the clients I work with, it's, it's adjusting their time so it's focused 70% on, you know, this hidden job marketing role that way and then 20 to 30% on not just applying, right.
Speaker B:But get making sure, like different ways to make sure that you are, you're getting your resume seen by the right people like a human, not a computer, like an ATS system that's just like blocking you without anyone talking to you.
Speaker B:So yes, it's about applying, but it's making sure that you get through that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:A real human, you know.
Speaker A:Yes, yes, exactly.
Speaker A:And then, then looking at the job market at the moment for like take the US where a Lot.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I watch from, observe, from a distance, of course, but I hear a lot about how things are changing.
Speaker A:People's jobs might be changing a lot because suddenly you're not allowed to mention a word or a term or your rules change and regulations, etc, etc.
Speaker A:And you said something like, you can start out feeling very aligned with your job, but then suddenly it's very, very far from where you started and you feel very much out of alignment.
Speaker A:And then it might be time to make a shift.
Speaker A:But my question then is, when the job market is so pressured, where do you draw the line?
Speaker A:So when do you kind of say that, okay, enough is enough, I can't do this anymore, and risk to jump, if you see what I mean, when it's.
Speaker A:It's so tough out there.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So it's about taking strategic risks, right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:You know, being in a job where you no longer enjoy it, you dread going to work, you know, all of those things.
Speaker B:I believe that really our purpose in life is to be fulfilled and to be giving back, you know, in a way that you feel very.
Speaker B:That feels very natural and you're aligned to.
Speaker B:If you're out of that, then there's definitely.
Speaker B:That's a message that, like, you need to be moving and the only constant in life is change.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So a big piece of this, and with the people I work with, that it's about change, Right.
Speaker B:And how you become comfortable with change.
Speaker B:Now, there's a lot of different things out there, and I'm not completely discounting it, but for example, the economy, the politics, there's a lot of talk about these things, right?
Speaker B:In addition to, like, the job market's really bad now, there's.
Speaker B:Because of that, there can be a lot of limiting beliefs, right?
Speaker B:Of like, oh, the job market's so bad, I just need to stay put.
Speaker B:I shouldn't move forward if, you know, if you're not ready to move forward.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:But you can still be, you know, making connections with people, right?
Speaker B:Learning more about different paths, whether, you know, more specifically what you want to move into or you're not sure yet.
Speaker B:There are things you can be doing to move down that direction because, like, the lack of momentum will hold you back.
Speaker B:And then, who knows, like, five years pass by, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years.
Speaker B:Then you say, what did I do with my life?
Speaker B:You know, like, that's.
Speaker A:Yes, I know.
Speaker B:And the last thing on this is, you know, we say, like, the job market is bad, right?
Speaker B:There's still millions of people being hired, you know, so it's like, are you going to take this negative stance, right, where you say oh, it's so bad, bad, bad, bad.
Speaker B:Or you're gonna say oh like half glass, half full.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:We're like, no, there's a lot of people getting hired.
Speaker B:It just, you just need to use different approaches.
Speaker B:That's so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Does that make sense?
Speaker A:Yes, it makes sense.
Speaker A:And where, where do you, how, how do you start with people?
Speaker A:Let's say you're like you, you work mainly with mid career professionals, I think.
Speaker A:So if you feel like either you lost your job or you're just in transition for some other reason, where do you tell people to start if they feel like, oh, I don't have any idea where to go now, who am I?
Speaker A:What do I want to do actually?
Speaker A:How do I let go of my previous identity as a professional in whatever.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, find what's out out there.
Speaker B:Yeah, 100%.
Speaker B:So this is the exact dilemma that I was in, you know, and I transitioned from being a teacher into moving into tech, you know, and essentially starting out.
Speaker B:I had been a teacher for eight years.
Speaker B:I knew early on that I didn't want to do it anymore.
Speaker B:But my friends and family kept on saying, oh, why don't you try not teaching high school, teach college.
Speaker B:So I got my master's degree, taught college, same issues I was dealing with once.
Speaker B:What happened with me is I got very sick and I got a pneumonia and I called the HR of the university I was working at and told them and they gaslit me like oh well your students, you know, is the end of the semester your students need you.
Speaker B:Who's going to grade their essays, who's going to proctor the exam and they didn't care that I was sick at all.
Speaker B:So that's when I knew that I needed to gain momentum, right?
Speaker B:So first there's that usually there's like either that kick in the pants, but if there's not, the people who come to me, they're obviously coming to me realizing that something needs to change, right?
Speaker B:So first realizing that that is something and not putting yourself down, right.
Speaker B:Or having these self limiting beliefs is like, well the job market's bad, well I won't be able to make as much money.
Speaker B:All these are assumptions and you don't really know, you know, those aren't facts.
Speaker B:So that's the first piece.
Speaker B:And then from there what I did and with clients that I work with, it's the same thing.
Speaker B:It's about going within before you go out, right.
Speaker B:Like I identified so much with Being a teacher, I didn't know who I was, my identity outside of being a teacher.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It took me a year and a half.
Speaker B:Now with my clients, it takes a lot less time, you know, because they, they had a system that I didn't realize I was creating at the time.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But essentially it's getting clear about who you are.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:What are your values outside of preconceived notions, what society is telling you, your family and getting clear on, like, where do you see yourself moving in the next five, 10 years?
Speaker B:And what really is your purpose in purpose in life or purpose in your career, which is how you want to be giving back and what your legacy is?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So there are these big questions, right, where you start to really dig down in yourself to explore what even this could be.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because at least I firmly believe that when you are making a career transition, it's not, yes, you're unhappy with what you are doing, but the next piece is not like just to get another job, per se.
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker B:Yes, you do, but like, what's the bigger purpose?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because maybe that next job doesn't fit towards that.
Speaker B:The isn't 100% in alignment with your North Star immediately, but it's in the process of getting you there.
Speaker B:But if you haven't defined what that is or thought about that, then, you know, honestly, you're just going, you're switching jobs and industries, but it's just, you know, you're just going job to job to job and it's not really empowering.
Speaker B:And it's unclear where you're moving ahead in life.
Speaker B:So that's where we start usually.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And that's a big job.
Speaker A:I went through that myself.
Speaker A:So like.
Speaker A:But very interesting as well, when you realize that I should do something like starting out, trying to fit into what you see out there, what you think is needed, and then trying to like just fit into that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:It's not working.
Speaker B:Can I ask you what was your journey like with that?
Speaker B:And you've made like really big movements too.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I'm curious.
Speaker B:What's for you?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that, that identity shift was a big issue for me.
Speaker A:I didn't realize before, kind of maybe looking back, but I'm like, my education background is in geophysics, petroleum geophysics.
Speaker A:So that was my very strong identity.
Speaker A:And then losing that job, trying to find something when I realized, okay, the job market for Jeev physicist at the moment is very bad.
Speaker A:So I need to find something close to that as close as possible, you know, and trying to look at the ads and, okay, what does it need?
Speaker A:And then just, no, it didn't feel right at all.
Speaker A:So that was a journey.
Speaker A:And then I did what you said there.
Speaker A:I, like, went inwards and tried to just go back to my childhood, even realizing that, oh, I used to love writing.
Speaker A:Why did I forget that?
Speaker A:Why didn't I use that for anything?
Speaker A:So all these steps, and as you said, also really interesting that you don't find it right away.
Speaker A:You have to kind of test a little bit and be okay with, okay, that was not exactly that.
Speaker A:I need to adjust again and again and again.
Speaker A:And maybe for your whole life.
Speaker A:That is kind of the.
Speaker A:The journey.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, we're all different.
Speaker B:And yes.
Speaker B:You know, it's so interesting.
Speaker B:Like, one thing you said that really resonated was, you know, you forgot, right?
Speaker B:Like, that you had such a strong interest in writing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And it came back later.
Speaker B:You're like, oh, why haven't I been doing this?
Speaker B:Why hadn't that been part of it?
Speaker B:A big piece is going back, like, to.
Speaker B:To your childhood or different parts in your life where you had these positive moments and memories, like, oh, you know, what was it about that that I liked?
Speaker B:I'll tell you, kind of funny.
Speaker B:I wanted to be a bus driver when I was a kid, right?
Speaker B:Now, I.
Speaker B:That didn't come true, unfortunately.
Speaker B:I suppose.
Speaker A:Never too late.
Speaker A:Never too late.
Speaker B:Yeah, never.
Speaker B:Never too late.
Speaker B:Never too late.
Speaker B:But what I realized is that I have a real interest and excitement around transportation.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So from there, I explored a bit in my career at working in transportation in a different way.
Speaker B:I was working at Uber in the corporate.
Speaker B:The corporate headquarters.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But it's a company that's, like, focused right.
Speaker B:On transportation.
Speaker B:So, like, there.
Speaker B:These things that have been passions in your life, maybe they can turn into career opportunities later.
Speaker B:Or maybe it's just breadcrumbs.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So, yeah, and it's exploring and figure things out.
Speaker B:And that's really what life is, right?
Speaker A:Like, yes, it is.
Speaker B:No exact, like, plan.
Speaker B:You can have guidance.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But, like, you're living your own life, and that's the beauty of it, you know?
Speaker A:Yes, exactly.
Speaker A:So what you.
Speaker A:What would you say is the.
Speaker A:Their risk of not acting or not doing anything?
Speaker A:If you feel that this is.
Speaker A:This.
Speaker A:I'm totally out of alignment.
Speaker A:What do you see people risking then?
Speaker B:Well, I mean, so much first, when you start to realize that you're out of alignment, it's that, like, tug within you, like, meh, I'm not excited to go to work.
Speaker B:This is meh.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:But what happens is the longer that goes on and festers, Right.
Speaker B:You know, you start to have resentments.
Speaker B:You start.
Speaker B:These emotions start to build up, and then from there, what tends to happen is it's not just your career where it happens with.
Speaker B:It happens in your family, where you start to get short or upset, craze, you know, it.
Speaker B:It affects everything.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Your career is not like a hundred percent compartmentalized.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And, you know, like, the longer this goes on, the more dissatisfaction you tend to have in life.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So it's really about pinpointing what those pieces are that are holding you back and then identifying them and moving forward.
Speaker B:Sometimes what happens with folks that I see is, in general, they're not happy in life, but they don't realize why.
Speaker B:And a big part of that can be their career.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:In addition to other things.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But these career choices, if we don't move forward, you know, we.
Speaker B:We don't have momentum.
Speaker B:And really the only constant in life is change.
Speaker B:So you're really going against, like, human nature and biology or the universe, you could say, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do you see a lot of, like, burnout?
Speaker A:Like, is it a lot?
Speaker A:Or is that just a feeling that I'm having that.
Speaker B:No, I think.
Speaker B:I think you're right.
Speaker B:The pandemic played a very big role in, you know, people's burnout, mental health, and just what they're doing in life.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B: ide or, you know, even during: Speaker B:So your life really was shifting not just during the pandemic, but after I.
Speaker B:Because I felt the same way as you.
Speaker B:And you know what?
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:How I see burnout is.
Speaker B:Or during the pandemic, what I did, and I know a lot of other people did, was these passions that you had that were outside, maybe playing sports or connecting with people, going out with them.
Speaker B:You're no longer able to do that.
Speaker B:So what's the fix?
Speaker B:Where does your time go?
Speaker B:It can tend to go more into work.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So you're working, working, working, and you're at home.
Speaker B:You don't really have work life balance because you're at home.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:That might be where it starts.
Speaker B:So the advice I have for that is really focused on four different parts of yourself.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So, yes, your career.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Or the intellectual side, potentially, of you, but also the emotional side.
Speaker B:How are you.
Speaker B:How are you bringing in joy?
Speaker B:How are you doing things that make that light you up.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So those are one and two.
Speaker B:And then, you know, from there it's how are you connecting with something bigger to yourself?
Speaker B:Whether you call it spirituality or, you know, not just looking at the minute, but looking at the bigger picture.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Then the last piece is your physical health.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Serve your body.
Speaker B:You know, like burnout really is.
Speaker B:You're just, you're just burning the midnight oil as.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:With one of these areas and you're not acknowledging these other areas.
Speaker B:And that's why you're just out of balance.
Speaker B:But once you start balancing, then the burnout tends to lessen and lessen.
Speaker B:In my experience and people I work with.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's everything in life is about balance.
Speaker B:We all have different balances.
Speaker B:Some people have more of a skew towards working, other people towards family or what have you.
Speaker B:But whatever that alchemy is, we can say of those pieces or the balance of those elements, we need to get in alignment with that.
Speaker B:And when we're not, it's burnout.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:How do you see AI?
Speaker A:So how is it affecting as you see it, how is it affecting people in their jobs?
Speaker A:But also, and you can take this as two different questions, but also how can you use it to both in, to, to become more, maybe more resilient in your career, but also when you're looking for a job?
Speaker A:I've used that myself and I think that is, I, I think it's great fun.
Speaker A:But how have you seen it being used?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So with AI, I mean it.
Speaker B:There's a lot of exciting stuff happening.
Speaker B:AI but it can also be scary for people.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:You know, it's.
Speaker B:I think a lot of people feel like, what is their job as?
Speaker B:Like really their job is all in their brain.
Speaker B:That's basically what all of us are doing.
Speaker B:Or white collar roles.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So then how are you, how do you differentiate yourself with the AI?
Speaker B:And my recommendation is don't see yourself.
Speaker B:Don't pit yourself like you versus AI but have AI enhance where you're at.
Speaker B:So see it more like an assistant.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You need to adapt to AI you need to integrate this within your practice.
Speaker B:If you're not, you will quickly be left behind.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Really, how I see the job market moving and corporate hiring is A, on people who are able to utilize the AI and then B, be, you know, people who are, are able to adapt in a way where they can take kind of the generic approach that AI gives you and then expand it from there.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Really, I think it Accentuates in the, in the job market and really throughout the world, accentuates our humanness that has become lost a lot of times where in the job market.
Speaker B:Like, you know, so the job market really the approach of like applying to jobs and having job postings started during the industrial age, right.
Speaker B:So after the Middle ages and renaissance.
Speaker B:So with that, I mean that was all about working in a factory.
Speaker B:Just numbers, numbers, numbers and it doesn't really matter.
Speaker B:Your brain, right.
Speaker B:It's what you do.
Speaker B:That's the system that we still essentially use today terms of in the job market, right.
Speaker B:Where your brain and your humanness was, besides like physically manufacturing type stuff was deprioritized.
Speaker B:So now with AI, it's now even more so about who you are as a person and that's your sweet spot.
Speaker B:So really getting clear about who you are internally.
Speaker B:But then also in terms of your, what you bring, you know, your creative approach as a human is something that AI won't be able to, you know, won't be able to replicate.
Speaker B:Right there.
Speaker B:It's not a human and it's not you.
Speaker B:So that's, you know, it's an interesting time, right.
Speaker B:Because your humanness is your secret sauce.
Speaker B:It's not 4 million years of experience or like you did this, this.
Speaker B:It's, it's your brain and your critical thinking, you know.
Speaker B:So I actually think that changes, that change is nerve wracking and can be very difficult for people.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But overall I actually think that it's, it's really, it's going to force people to get more in tune with who they are and their value.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So it can be very empowering if you let it.
Speaker B:Otherwise it's, you know, you're going to go down the other path where you're disempowered, you are, you know, sticking where you're at and you're saying AI is bad, but then it's, it will replace these like roles that don't really use our human touch.
Speaker B:So like you need to adapt or if you're not doing that then you probably will be left behind, to be honest.
Speaker B:You know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:How do you see people using it successfully when applying to jobs?
Speaker A:I've been wondering about that.
Speaker A:I haven't written a job application for a long time, but yeah.
Speaker A:Is that something that the hiring managers see through if you use AI in that, in that sense?
Speaker A:Do you see?
Speaker B:That's a wonderful question.
Speaker B:So a lot of ways that job applicants use AI is they get the job description from a website, they input that into ChatGPT or another AI, then they put in their resume and they say, okay, tailor my resume towards this job description.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now the problem is, is if everyone is doing this technique, then you're just like everyone.
Speaker A:Yes, exactly.
Speaker B:You know these are large language models, right?
Speaker B:But large language model is not infinite and it's a algorithm.
Speaker B:So you're making yourself even more sound like everyone else.
Speaker B:So what I recommend is, yes, AI is a powerful tool, but you need to use it in different ways.
Speaker B:So one way I recommend is through like interview prep, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:A lot of these questions that are asked in interviews tend to be the same.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And practicing and getting feedback through AI can be really, really powerful, you know, because the application and the interview process is also very old school.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like it's not about the skills and what you're able to do, it's about how you are able to talk.
Speaker B:What I tell my clients is everything in landing job really is about communication and perception.
Speaker B:So, you know, it's not really about your hard skills and, you know, so yeah, it's using it for interview prep and really focusing on ways you can use it to tailor and adjust your communication.
Speaker B:So understand more about companies.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And what are particular pain points that those companies are dealing with that you can bring up in interview processes?
Speaker B:Just as.
Speaker B:As a few examples.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So research, it's great for.
Speaker B:And then communication can be really helpful for it.
Speaker B:That's what I recommend.
Speaker B:Not just tailoring your resume.
Speaker B:Use it a little bit for it, but like, don't use it too much, otherwise you just sound generic.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:That's great advice.
Speaker A:On that note, actually talking about communication, it was this new story in, in a Norwegian like main TV channel or radio channel this week about a guy who had.
Speaker A:He had been applying for jobs for I think two years almost.
Speaker A:Great skills, great background, everything.
Speaker A:But he was very introverted.
Speaker A:So his problem was not he was called into interviews, but he didn't nail that first.
Speaker A:Like the first part where you have to be charming and like all the things that extroverted people will shine more at.
Speaker A:So how, how is that, Is that like a global thing?
Speaker A:I would assume that often the interview process is more geared towards extroverted people.
Speaker A:People.
Speaker A:And what would your advice be then for people who are introverted and.
Speaker A:And also have great qualities and.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Should be seen and heard.
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:So I'll tell you my thoughts about introversion and extroversion.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:Those terms or the implication there is black and white.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Introvert, you're an extrovert and most people are kind of ambiverts.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Most things in life, you're like a unique alchemy, you could say, of different pieces there.
Speaker B:What I would say is at the end of the day, we are humans and a human instinct is to build connections with people.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And to get to know people for.
Speaker B:Uniquely for who they are.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So go into conversations with that in the back of your mind.
Speaker B:Seeing interviews.
Speaker B:More like an alignment meeting.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:All these conversations is alignment just to see like whether there are problems that they're facing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Which basically is what they're hiring for.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They have a pain point.
Speaker B:And then if you can solve that, you know that pain point.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:If you can create.
Speaker B:If you can't, that's fine.
Speaker B:And you know, at the end of the day.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I think what I believe is that there's kind of a belief that like interviewing and anything related to jobs is either A transactional or B about your past experience.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:It does count your past experience, but not as much as people think.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker B:It's really about building this connection with someone.
Speaker B:And doesn't matter if you're an extrovert or introvert.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like there's these key things where you do need to always be active, actively listening.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Being in the moment.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Not, you know, that idea of being an extrovert, which I think is an implication of being maybe more salesy or something you are.
Speaker B:That doesn't, you know, that's not necessarily the right thing.
Speaker B:And you know, last thing on this, I think there's also a perception that being comfortable speaking and you know, being great one on one is what extroverts have.
Speaker B:But introverts don't like very generically.
Speaker B:But, you know, there's obstacles on both ends.
Speaker B:If we see these as two different sides, sides of the coin.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:You know, with an introversion they might, it might be difficult for folks to, you know, not connect.
Speaker B:I think that that's something that usually is pretty strong in a one on one setting, but advocate for themselves can be difficult.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and that's an obstacle they face.
Speaker B:But extroversion or people who sell more that way, sometimes they can over index in their warmth.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And showing their competence too.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And speaking a lot.
Speaker B:So there's these balances where it's not like it's.
Speaker B:I don't think it's necessarily completely geared just towards extroverts or introverts.
Speaker B:It's that maybe you could say it's about how comfortable you are with speaking to new people that you don't know and taking down this trust barrier that everyone has because they don't know you and lowering that through what I call warmth markers and competence markers.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Which are those pieces that start to build authentic connections with people and you know, make honestly what I say is like make interviews and meeting people less like icky, like uncomfortable.
Speaker B:So that's kind of my thought around introvert version.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And listening, listening to you.
Speaker A:Now I think maybe this is also a question of assumptions in a way like and the mindset that the person would go into the interview and if you go into the interview and think that oh this is I should have been an extrovert and I would have nailed this a lot easier then you have already kind of set a like a wall behind yourself and the other person.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Self fulfilling prophecy, you know?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, exactly.
Speaker B:And you know, a big thing that, you know, my background, original background in school was in linguistics and that has been neuro linguistics.
Speaker B:And that's been a real big focus of just my work ever since then in different capacities.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But for people who feel that they're not good communicators and aren't good speaking with people one on one or via email, you know, there's specific tactics.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like very actionable tactics and words in approaches you can take that build your, that not only build your confidence but really takes these things that maybe one interprets extroverts are good at and which are subconscious.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And once you learn them consciously, that's where applied knowledge is powerful.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And you're able to influence.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And not just be relying on these things that aren't really identifiable or unclear because they're in your subconscious, you know?
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Oh, this is so interesting.
Speaker A:I could talk about this forever.
Speaker A:It's really interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah, I guess that's a good thing that you could talk about it forever.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Sometimes too much though.
Speaker B:Maybe so.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But we need to wrap up.
Speaker A:But before we do that, if people are interested in hearing more about what you do or learning from you, where do they go?
Speaker A:What's the easiest way?
Speaker B:Definitely so.
Speaker B:So my website is one way to just learn more about me, learn more about my business, what we do.
Speaker B:And if it seems like something is interests you, it's that program offerings that I have, you know, look there.
Speaker B:Or the courses that I offer.
Speaker B:In addition to that for now I offer complimentary 30 minute consultations.
Speaker B:So happy to talk to you, to anyone listening and just see if this is something where, you know, I can support you whether it's in just like some quick advice on the call or if it's something they could support you longer with that, you know, we could explore that.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But at the end of the day, with people I work with, I'm really my purpose with all of this is to help people grow and be empowered in their career.
Speaker B:Not.
Speaker B:Not disempowered.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Which is kind of the traditional paradigm.
Speaker B:That's a.
Speaker B:This is a long way of me saying if this sounds like something you're interested in, you can check out my website@www.career alchemy lab.com and then I am also very big on LinkedIn, where I post every day at 9am Eastern Standard Time, Boston time.
Speaker B:Yeah, check me out there.
Speaker B:Follow me, connect with me, say hi, I'm a friendly person.
Speaker B:I think so.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think you are.
Speaker A:I'll put all the links in the show notes so people can find it easily.
Speaker A:And thank you so much for your time.
Speaker A:I'm absolutely certain that a lot of my listeners have gotten both inspiration and perhaps also a little kick to make some changes if they feel like they should.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, good.
Speaker B:I'm glad to hear that.
Speaker B:And that's also my intention for speaking with you and being on the podcast.
Speaker B:It's inspiration and motivation and, you know, let's get moving.
Speaker B:Don't be stagnant, you know, let's move forward.
Speaker B:So amazing.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:That's it for today's episode.
Speaker A:I hope that Keith's insight gave you a fresh perspective on what's possible even in a shifting job market, from finding alignment and building momentum to rethinking networking and using tools like AI with intention.
Speaker A:If you're looking for more content on career change, other changes and interesting stuff that has to do with the future, you can find me over on on substack@wiklavonese.substack.com that's where I share Reflections, tools and resources.
Speaker A:For instance, like the Quiet Pivot Companion Pack, which is full of exercises to support your next step.
Speaker A:If you're going through a career shift, you can also find that tool on storiesforthefuture.com pivot where you also also can explore more of everything that I do.
Speaker A:Thanks so much for listening and until next time, take care.
