Empowering women in the workplace: Ditch the Perfect Swan! | Maria Evans, confidence coach

Maria Evans

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and I'm trying to figure out how we can all live good lives, have exciting jobs. And at the same time, take good care of the planet and everyone living here. I want to unlock the superpower. So everyday people so that together we can, co-create a future. We're all excited about. So come join me on this journey. The future is up to us, and I know that we can make it a good one. Welcome. [00:01:00] It has been a really long break for this podcast. I never intended it to be this long, but so many things have happened during the last year. And when you first break a routine, It is. Oh, so hard to get back. And I'm sure you have noticed this for yourself. I'm not going to spend a lot of time talking about everything, all the projects, personal and professional. That has made stories for the future. Move back in the queue of priorities. Except for one of them. Because this is highly relevant for the topic of this podcast. As I say in the intro, I have used this podcast to look for the intersection between a good life, an exciting job, and a happy planet. And that goes for myself as well as looking into how other people figure this out. And when it comes to the exciting job part, I have made a change for myself [00:02:00] during the last few months

of a lot of . Precious time [: 00:03:00

Thank you. Thank you.

So happy to have you here. And first of all, tell us where you're based.

d to live in London, um, and [: 00:05:00

Yeah, you should be. I think that Oxford is probably one of my favorite cities in the whole world. And I just can picture myself studying Shakespeare, for instance, just walking inside those lovely university buildings. And it's a, it's a beautiful city, I think.

It is. It's just a bit too quiet for certainly one of my teenagers. So,

Yeah, okay.

uh, the London's, you know, got a lot more buzz and noise. to it. So,

swan, appearing calm on the [: 00:06:00

Could you just explain a little bit about what you mean, what you mean with this metaphor? And maybe also, I can imagine that it's It's, uh, sort of based on a true story, maybe your own.

um, very much. Um, so yes, I think so many of us, um, grow up aspiring to perfectionism, to projecting an image to the rest of the world about how we think we should be, rather than how things actually are. Um, and certainly for me, and I've observed this in, in lots of the women that I coach, you know, I felt as if I was doing a brilliant job of coming across as calm and professional and everything was perfect.

think depending on your life [: 00:07:00

And both time, it, it was because I was trying to do too much. And the second time was after having children. you know, there's only so much you can throw it a life and carry on trying to be perfect. You can just about, as I say, I think do it when you're purely focusing on work, but you cannot be perfect at work and be a perfect mother.

the angrier I was about the [: 00:08:00

Yeah. So why do you think this is? Why is it so different for, for men? Do you think?

So, um, so many reasons, I mean, So all the research suggests that whilst obviously some of these characteristics absolutely appear in men, women are more likely to be people pleasing, more likely to be perfectionist, um, more likely, sadly, to suffer from burnout, more likely to suffer from imposter syndrome.

And I think, inevitably, a lot of it is rooted in our education systems, um, So what we know is that girls typically do very well at school because they are very well conditioned by society to behaving well and that is rewarded well at school. So it's really, really easy, I think, to be a perfect girl at school.

The business world [: 00:09:00

Um, and they're still trying to get those perfect grades because that's what's worked for them in the past. And they struggle really, really, um, you know, so very much when. They come across criticism or they're encouraged to take risks, or maybe they can't take those risks and whatever. And boys who typically don't do as well in school are used to people, you know, telling them that they're rubbish or whatever.

a duck's back. Whereas women [: 00:10:00

So one, one part is the education system, but another part, and I've been wondering a lot about this myself because like the, just the way that, A career is supposed to be, or like our work life, uh, in combination with family and kids and everything, it's kind of not working.

go back and make it work. So [: 00:11:00

Yes. I hear that a lot actually that, um, so I do a lot of research on women and confidence and the women who struggle least with confidence after having a family typically tend to be the ones who work for themselves. So there they, they can. adapt, they can make the flexibility work for themselves better.

I'm not suggesting it's perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but you and I know how messy lives are, even before we have children, but if you throw children into the mix, or if you throw other caring responsibilities into the mix. Those things do not go predictably well, you know, there will always be the call saying such and such is ill or such and such has had a fall or you need to come now.

y lives historically has not [: 00:12:00

So, um, I think, I think one of the things though, that I do see as promising, if I look back at the 18 years since I first started having children, it really was a question of absolutely everything got brushed under the carpet. I had a miscarriage between my two children, and that just wasn't. talked about at all.

that I feel very passionate [: 00:13:00

So I, I do see that as being more promising, but like you, certainly, you know, I look back at what I had to live through when I first had my children and the way I had to pretend that they didn't exist. And I, it feels barbaric, really. You know, how can that be, you know, in the 21st century that That we're supposed to pretend that there's just this bit of us that comes to work

Yes.

when we're a whole person with all that that entails.

s or companies I have worked [: 00:14:00

I, I think it is. I think, um, sadly, some of these things are driven by finance and the law. So actually, um, because one in 10, so if we talk just about the menopause, one in 10 women leave the workplace because of the menopause.

Oh,

Some of those women who have left have then filed for discrimination, um, constructive dismissal and have won cases which have been very, very costly.

her organizations are going, [: 00:15:00

So the policies are starting to be put in place, but we know that policy doesn't necessarily change a culture. So it's a, it's a first step. In the organizations are You know, covering themselves or beginning the process of looking after the messiness of all of our lives. I don't yet know the extent to which that changes to the point where people feel that they can talk openly about some of these things.

We have no option but to talk openly about pregnancy. You can't, you can't hide

no,

But everything else, I don't know. I mean, it's been a while since I've been in a full time in a workplace. And I don't know whether people feel. that they can talk about their mental well being, that they can talk about menopause, that they can talk about, you know, a parent being ill, dying, and so forth.

I think it really, really [: 00:16:00

that's true. But it should be a part of like everything we talk about around sustainability and the inner development goals is called like. All, it's, it's all connected. , all the different, um, skills and things we need to develop in order to, to, uh, fix the, kind of the outer problems.

it's the same for all forms [: 00:17:00

Um, diversity enriches the thinking of an organization. It makes them more aware of their client base, because, you know, their clients might be representing all of those forms of diversity. So, if organizations are not making it easy for people to stay in work, whether they've had children, whether they're going through the menopause, whether they're caring for elderly parents, you know, whatever it might be, if they have a disability, then ultimately those organizations are putting themselves at a disadvantage.

which is a huge, huge topic.[: 00:18:00

And. My experience through the last years when of developing my own business and things is that if I want to accomplish the things that I want to do and have the impact I want to have, I need to push my comfort zone. So it's, and it's very, just this podcast is a very good example. Uh, it actually started with a blog and just, you know, pressing that button and putting out a blog post was just terrifying.

And then you just take the small steps and having the first podcast in Norwegian first and then, Oh, do I dare do it in English? And then you just widen it, I guess is, is a better word. So, so what is your experience when you work with women? And yeah, what kind of advice do you give them when it comes

really important though, to [: 00:19:00

So far out of your comfort zone. So again, it's one of those things where it's about balance, where it's about taking on a bit of a stretch that is helping you to develop and learn, but not so much of a stretch that it leads you utterly stressed, you know, risking burnout and so forth, but absolutely. And it, and it is.

% of what they [: 00:20:00

And the research that HP did, if it was hp, I think it was hp, was that the man at that point went, I've got 60%. I'll bus the rest and I'll apply. And the women would go, I'm not going to apply for that type of job until I've got a hundred percent. or, you know, way, way closer. So women are holding themselves back from being pushed into their, you know, pushed out of their comfort zone.

So their comfort zones, I wonder if... You know, I'm hypothesizing here, but are actually a lot smaller, um, as a result, and of course, you know, they're, they're, they're for missing out on their own potential to develop, to get promotions, to get, um, other jobs and so forth. And I think that's one of the things that really, really upsets me, um, around women and confidence is it.

a lot of the time it's women [: 00:21:00

Do you think this is due to the, is it, uh, is it the fear of, uh, what other people think? Or is it, uh, the fear of failure? Is it

I think, I think fear of, so again, so as I say, women apparently, according to the research, are more risk averse. Um, and I think fear of rejection.

Hmm.

Um, I think women are in our society more conscious of what people think about them because we are just typically scrutinized more in all of the media. What is that person wearing?

g on social media yesterday. [: 00:22:00

So I think when you are under greater scrutiny, you do feel that you are going to be judged more. Um, and so, yes, that does. That does make it a bigger leap, uh. put yourself out there?

work with people and try to [: 00:23:00

So, so how, how was your journey? Why? Why?

Well, there's, there's two things I'd like to say about that, because I'm very aware that despite the fact that I come from really solid working class stock, my father was a builder. My mother left school at 15. I know that because of my schooling, I think I come across as being quite So probably would think people would think, Oh, well, that's exactly the sort of person who would go and do a PhD.

w, people who had doctorates [: 00:24:00

So even more so, I didn't think that that was, that that was not what I intended to do. Um, but then because of a series of, not completely random, But certainly not, you know, there was no strategic goal from me aged 18 to the point when I did a PhD in my early 50s. It was a very circuitous route. It was not part of the career plan.

nterested in helping me do a [: 00:25:00

Because I had a history with them, because I had, by that point, the, um, necessary qualifications, we explored that and I was able to do a PhD. But I will be very, very honest with you, the real reason I wanted to do a PhD at that particular point was I was freelance. We had a change of government in the UK in 2010.

The organizations I was working with as a freelance disappeared almost overnight. I still had very young children and I wanted to be able to do something from home. And a PhD, when I, when my freelance work dried up, a PhD enabled me to stay at home with my children. So it was not part of a strategic career plan.

p. Doing those, those things [: 00:26:00

Yeah.

So yes

Yeah, that's an interesting story. And yeah, but did you enjoy it?

I, I mean, until I wrote it up, yes, I loved doing the research. I loved being given permission to go away and read books and get totally immersed into it. I loved interviewing the teachers, um, who I interviewed as part of the research. The last 18 months of writing up was... unbelievably awful. I was then working part time at the same time and still bringing up relatively young children and it, you know, it nearly killed me.

t bit was not, was not great [: 00:27:00

that's good to hear. And that was it. You inspired me now I got thinking. And Oxford, you know, beautiful university. Okay, so I have, I have a couple of more questions for you. And and one of them is I've read, or I'm, I'm in this, , course at the moment about futures thinking, , at Coursera. It's really, really good. , and in that course, they talk about something they call the VUCA world, which I don't know if you heard about it, it's, uh, it stands for volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity.

st a way to explain, um, how [: 00:28:00

And, and I, I think a lot about this when it comes to people my age and well, younger and older as well, but in, in, in working life and everything that is changing, for instance, also when it comes to technology, AI, everything, how do you approach that with your clients, um, being adaptable and resilient and.

actually is really accepting [: 00:29:00

Um, so I, I really try and encourage the the clients that I work with to be incredibly kind to themselves. You know, we, none of us, when we were growing up could have anticipated the way things have been panning out. So you could spend a lot of time and energy kicking against how things are. Um, and actually that's time and energy that you will not get back.

, um, rather than, as I say, [: 00:30:00

Or why is the world like that? Why is this politician like that? Why is the weather like this? Why climate change? All of those things, whilst obviously recognising areas which we can change. Um, so it's really important within acceptance to sort of say, well actually is this something that I, that I do have some agency over?

Can I be an activist, you know, on a small scale or on a large scale or whatever? So I think For me, resilience and adaptability are, go hand in hand with, with acceptance, um, so that you're incredibly focused on, on what you can change.

that's a big thing because we're, we're fighting a lot against the things that we can't change.

Yes.

a way. Yeah. That's so true.

Yeah.

I saw that you have a course [: 00:31:00

Okay. So I've been specializing, um, in coaching women around confidence since the first, since the pandemic. So since the first lockdown, I did some coaching then, um, and it became really, really obvious that women were being disproportionately affected by the pandemic. Um, and that women's confidence, which was already not great, had been hit really, really And so I became really, really passionate about supporting women with confidence because of that thing of, you know, without confidence, women just so often hold themselves back.

le to take their fair share, [: 00:32:00

So I really, um, focus in on this area and I either coach people individually or occasionally I run group courses and I'm really, really excited about the next one. So I'm running a seven week course, um, called Calmly Confident, and I have this other sort of bugbear of mine about not. It's not about trying to get women to adopt typically male characteristics.

It's not about being aggressively confident or trying to up your testosterone levels or, you know, whatever. It's about finding an authentic confidence that sits comfortably with a lot of the women that I, that I meet. So it's about helping women become more self aware about where their confidence levels are, you know, there's room for work, because again, it really varies.

self as a parent, not really [: 00:33:00

Looking at how you project yourself online is a big thing these days. Dealing with those negative voices in our heads, which, you know, again, that's, that's what's holding so many of us back is trying to find a way of managing those voices and then setting up healthy habits to make sure that hopefully women can sustain this.

you know, in the future after the seven weeks of the course.

Yeah. I read the information on, on LinkedIn and it looks really, really good. And if people listen to this episode when it comes out, then you should have time to.

mation about the course there[: 00:34:00

Fantastic. And is that the best place to reach you as well? LinkedIn?

LinkedIn. Yeah. Um, but I also have a website, Maria Evans. One of the advantages about being that much older is I was around at that moment when we were all grabbing,

Yeah.

know, quite a few Maria Evans out there. I'm not the model, sadly, or the estate agent, but I do have mariaevans. com as my website name.

That's good. That's very good. I bet you could sell it for a huge amount. Don't do that. Yeah, but thank you so much. This has been really wonderful talking to you.

you so much for inviting me.

Yeah, and, uh, for everybody listening, I will put , all the information in the show notes so that you can, uh, get in touch with Maria if you'd like to.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

So [: 00:35:00